New to Fuel Injection on MC

[JKDJose]

Hi All. I have done searches and still have some questions. Question1: On my C50 can I get away with just installing a K&N filter and not worry about running too lean? Question 2: Does the Power commander III automatically adjust if you change airfilter, debaffle or change pipes or do you have to get a specific configuration (map) for which ever pipes you get? Question 3: Where can i get a PC commander III for a C50 at a great price?

[fjm3rd]

I'm not sure about Question 1. Question 2 is the PC will only adjust to what ever map you put into it. It won't won't self adjust if you happen to change something on your bike. And there are basically only 3 maps out for it right now. 1 for V&H Straightshots with aftermarket aircleaner and baffles in. One for the same setup with baffles out. And there is a new one on the web site with a set of Hard Krome pipes and air cleaner (I'm not totaly sure about the last one I mentioned, it's been awhile since I've been on the Dyno Jet web site. Also you can get a custom map made for you from a Dyno Jet Dealer if they have the equipment to do it, for a few hundred bucks. But Dyno Jet say's the maps should get it to within 80-90 percent. 3rd question try Oneida Suzuki that's where I got mine and they were one of the cheapest around.

[tlwisner]

I have heard several people say that a K&N air filter works fine with no changes, using the stock exhaust. I'll find out next week when mine gets here. The FI system does adjust on the fly, that's the whole point of an EFI system. I'll find out first hand if these "K&N works fine" reports are accurate. I have a K&N air filter in my car and it doesn't hurt anything.

[blackie1491]

There are 2 diff. types of FI systems, one is static, which is what we have and I believe the other is called virtual, which adjust on the fly.

Ours need to be flashed, custom map or thru the use of an FI aftermarket system adjust ourselfs thru pots or computor.

There is some room for play, but talk to your service manager.
If you install a K&N aircleaner, do a plug check after a brief ride.

[Kingby]

The two systems are call closed loop or open loop systems.

Open loop is what C50/M50 has. It is a simple fuel map loaded in and thats all we got. Change the amount of air that flows through the motor and you need to remap the ECU or the Air/Fuel mixture will be out of whack (rich or lean).

Closed loop is where you have Mass air flow sensors, O2 sensors etc... This monitors how much air is going in and the results of combustion in the exhaust. The ECU is able to calculate the sensor inputs to adjust fuel delivery to achieve the ideal air/fuel mixture. If you add a high flow filter or exhaust, the computer knows to add more fuel.

It even gets more complicated as some systems are a hybrids where different RPM ranges get open loop or closed loop responses from the ecu. Idle may be an open loop (set map) response as where WOT will get a closed loop (adjusts to sensor inputs) response.

[JKDJose]

Thanks Kingby. That's exactly what I needed to know.

[tlwisner]

My Factory Service manual says that the C50's FI system has the following sensors:
Crankshaft Position
Throttle Position
Intake Air Pressure (front)
Intake Air Pressure (rear)
Engine Coolant Temperature
Intake Air Temperature
Tip Over Sensor
Heated Oxygen Sensor
Secondary Throttle Position Sensor

[fjm3rd]

I think his main question was if the Power Commander changes automatically with adding more performance accessories to his bike, in that case it doesn't, it only adjust the fuel curve according to what ever map was downloaded into the unit. The only way to change the fuel setup is to download a different map into the unit that matches the accessories that are on the bike.

[Kingby]

Every FI system has a basic fuel map. The sensors that tlwisner mentioned take readings of what the motor is doing to let the ECU pin point the position on the map where all the sensor readings meet and deliver that corresponding preset fuel volume, at the correct time, for the correct duration and spark timing accordingly. Some of those sensors are also safety issues. If certain parameters are met the ECU cuts fuel or trips warning lights (IE: bike falls over ECU cuts fuel, engine coolant over heats and a warning light is triggered etc...)

The closed loop system uses a MAF in the intake (mass airflow sensor) to accurately determine the mass of air entering the motor, and an oxygen sensor in the exhaust to determine if the combustion was lean or rich (and how lean or rich it is). This data is returned to the ECU where it is able to adjust the basic map point fuel delivery parameters up or down in accordance with the air mass and exhaust gas readings over and above the basic map point. Although even these systems have their limits in adjustment and they also have aftermarket computers for more extreme applications.

This is the part that the M50/C50 is missing. The basic map is all we got, the air mass is set in accordance with what the stock intake and exhaust can flow at differnent RPM ranges as measured in factory testing. If we change the airflow characteristics the ECU cannot adjust for it as it just assumes stock airflow and is not able to measure and adjust (bad for the motor).

I did not know there was an O2 in the C50/M50 (still not entirely familiar with my M50) as mentioned by tlwisner, if there was I would assume it would be an issue to re-install the sensor when swapping out pipes, but I have not heard that issue being mentioned, so I am not sure where that sensor would be located. If there is one, I would assume it is more of a safety issue thing, where if the exhaust is determined to be dangerously lean the ECU maybe goes into some safe mode and dumps in a bunch of fuel??? (Don't know enough about this particular system).


fjm3rd - The PCIII is the same as the stock ECU all it does is replace the stock map with a new map. It is really the same as remapping the stock ECU. It may however have more adjustable points and additional modes and features over and above the stock ECU map, so it could be a justifiable expense over a ramap (I haven't looked into it enough yet).

So yes, if you change the airflow characteristics you need to adjust the map. Either download one where the map was created with similar airflow characteristics (IE: same intake and exhaust) or have a custom map created via a dyno tune. They will supplementally measure air flow and exhaust gases on a dyno run and manually adjust the map points with a computer to achieve the ideal map for you bike. The custom map is as only good as the tuner who makes it.

Confused yet? I am.

[tlwisner]

Originally Posted by Kingby

Confused yet? I am.

Yeah, I'm confused, but your post was very good. I took the sensor list from an EFI wiring diagram, so I didn't notice the physical location of the O2 sensor.

I guess what I am looking for is the EFI to still function well when changing the stock air filter for a stock configuration K&N in the stock football housing. I'm thinking (stand back...) that the change will not be very great.

[Kingby]

Originally Posted by tlwisner

Yeah, I'm confused, but your post was very good. I took the sensor list from an EFI wiring diagram, so I didn't notice the physical location of the O2 sensor.

I guess what I am looking for is the EFI to still function well when changing the stock air filter for a stock configuration K&N in the stock football housing. I'm thinking (stand back...) that the change will not be very great.

You most likely will be running a little lean, The ECU will think the stock amount of air will be flowing and only deliver fuel based upon the stock flow characteristics, when you are likely flowing a little more air, but how much more air, I don't know??? In any case the ECU will not be able to compensate for increased air flow.

With that said, the stock housing is quite restrictive (look at puny little hole that the air flows into the housing at the back) so strictly putting a K&N may not increase flow very much. You can try and look for lean fuel symptoms. One way would be to run with the K&N for a little and check you spark plugs for signs (See Here and Here) This is where the other FI units besides the PCIII (cobra, teclusion etc...) have the advantage. You can read the plugs to determine the aproximate fuel mixture, and adjust with the pot settings (not need to hook to a computer to load a new map to make the adjustments) and keep testing until you have it right (similar to the instructions of the first link instead of adjusting the jet you adjust the pot for the corresponding RPM range) . It is very much like adjusting the jetting of a carburetted motor except its even easier to access the pot settings and make instant adjustments.

EDIT: FYI, tuning your bike using the above mentioned can get you 95% of the way there. Going for the custom map on a PCIII may gain you that last 5% (thats with the dyno run and the intake and exhaust measurements) but I'm not sure if its worth the expense. You may not even feel that last 5%. The PCIII may have other benefits that would be worth it to some (more adjustment points and other features like accelerator pump etc...) but like I said I haven't looked that closely at it.

[C90TinPA]

Before purchasing my C50T, I had read a really good review of the bike. In this review, the reviewer was test riding in the Colorado Mountains. He made several observations of how well the fuel injection adapted to the higher altitudes with no loss of power. So I am guessing that the FI in the C50/M50 must have the ability to dynamically adjust for the amount of oxygen available. High altitudes were always a bear for carburated cars to deal with prior to fuel ingection becoming commonplace. Also, Suzuki did upgrade the ECU to a newer 32 bit unit....this presumably to handle more sophisticated controls. That it is able to adapt to altitudes would seem to imply that it is has some mechanism and automatic adjustment for actual oxygen content in the combustion chamber. Just my 2 cents and I could be way off here.

[intimid8er]

Originally Posted by Kingby

This is where the other FI units besides the PCIII (cobra, teclusion etc...) have the advantage. You can read the plugs to determine the aproximate fuel mixture, and adjust with the pot settings (not need to hook to a computer to load a new map to make the adjustments) and keep testing until you have it right. It is very much like adjusting the jetting of a carburetted motor except its even easier to access the pot settings and make instant adjustments.

You can also do that with a PCIII.

[msa1956]

I installed the K&N airfilter with stock pipes and I have made no other changes or adjustments on the bike, I am also getting 50MPG, using regular unleaded gas. I do not have a power commander at all and or anything like that.

[blackie1491]

One of the members said his bike had the 02 sensor.
I can't remember wether he was an Aussie or English.

[Kingby]

Originally Posted by C50TinPA

Before purchasing my C50T, I had read a really good review of the bike. In this review, the reviewer was test riding in the Colorado Mountains. He made several observations of how well the fuel injection adapted to the higher altitudes with no loss of power. So I am guessing that the FI in the C50/M50 must have the ability to dynamically adjust for the amount of oxygen available. High altitudes were always a bear for carburated cars to deal with prior to fuel ingection becoming commonplace. Also, Suzuki did upgrade the ECU to a newer 32 bit unit....this presumably to handle more sophisticated controls. That it is able to adapt to altitudes would seem to imply that it is has some mechanism and automatic adjustment for actual oxygen content in the combustion chamber. Just my 2 cents and I could be way off here.

It may be correct that it can adjust somewhat for altitude, I am in now way an expert on this stuff and am learning as I go, so if anyone has anything to add or correct, feel free. I live at altitude (Calgary is over 3500 feet and My house is at over 4200 feet) and I run rich. Everyone seems to comment how these bikes run lean from the factory so not sure if it adjusts from my observations. Also, anyone who changes out both intake and exhaust, report the bike runs extremely lean and the computer cannot compensate.

I wonder if the Pressure sensors and the O2 sensor (these parameters would be changing with altitude) are used to choose a different fuel delivery point on that static map. Still using the stock flow characteristics as the assumption. Aftermaket parts that increase flow would still need a new map in this case.

Now you've got me curious.

[Kingby]

Originally Posted by intimid8er

You can also do that with a PCIII.

Cool! didn't know you could adjust without hooking to the computer. I hadn't really looking into modding the intake and exhaust yet, but all this talk is getting to bug into me.

Guess I need to do some more reading.

[drgibson]

I just purchased the Techlusion TFI for $138. through ExtremeDave the PC III was $260. I didn't see how it could be that much better.

[robm50se]

Hi guys/gals

I just brought my new c50se home Friday night.

This brings up some more questions.....

About 10 years ago, I took my 1100 Virago to Mt. Washington in NH
When I got to the top it wouldnt idle at all. It was working real bad.
It didnt like being so high in the sky..

So if I took this bike up there - - would the FI adjust for the thin air ???
Has anyone been in a sim situation ????

Also I have the bike on the lift and i cant find any O2 sensor....
With out an O2 sensor how would it know to adjust the fuel at altitude??

And if it isnt capable of adjusting its self - is it any better than a carburator ??

FI for thought !!!!!!!

Rob

[wayoverpar68]

had my 06 c 50 up to 9000 feet on saturday and it ran like a champ no problems at all. completly stock no mods