Motorcycle-Journal Forums  

Go Back   Motorcycle-Journal Forums > General Discussion > Tips & Training
Motorcycle Journal       Suzuki Bikes       Honda Bikes       Yamaha Bikes

Tips & Training Riders new and old can always learn. Share and experience ideas for making motorcycling safer and more enjoyable here!


Welcome to the Motorcycle-Journal Forums forums.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 09-30-2004, 07:28 PM   #1 (permalink)
In Training
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 146
Default Engine Braking - which tire does it affect?!?

This has been bothering me for some time. When you downshift to slow down, which tire (wheel) is affected? While I was still getting the hang of downshifting, one of my downshifts was very abrubt, right before I entered a slight curve. The rear tire slipped out on me. Not tip over slip out, but definitely a loss of control. So, when you're downshifting to slow down, do you change your amount of front vs. rear brake???

__________________
My motto is "In all things - moderation." Of course, that means that even moderation needs to be practiced in moderation!
wavyredlaurie is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Suzuki Motorcycle Info  Honda Motorcycle Pictures  Kawasaki Motorcycle Resource  Yamaha Motorcycle
Old 09-30-2004, 07:35 PM   #2 (permalink)
Dogs Best Friend(admin)
 
Trapper's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Bike: SOLD
Location: Moncton NB Canada
Posts: 9,094
Default

I find if you let the clutch out slower that doesn't happen so much. Personally I read that taper breaking thing and I am using as much front brake as I feel comfortable doing. Hope that helps.
Trapper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2004, 07:37 PM   #3 (permalink)
Seat Tester
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Bike: 2000 Suz Gsxr 600
Location: Metairie, La
Posts: 54
Send a message via AIM to sicrx69 Send a message via MSN to sicrx69
Default

Sup,
Yea when u slip down to a lower gear going too fast the toque and lack of weight on the rear wheel causes it to skip or slide., can be pretty dangerous if you lock it. I usually only downshift to 4th or 3rd never second or first unless i am going really slow, i am by NO means a pro but just though i would share my 2 cents.
John
'00 Gsxr 600
sicrx69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2004, 08:13 PM   #4 (permalink)
Tater Salad
 
TL chris's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Bike: 1999 TL1000R
Location: NorCal
Posts: 1,926
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sicrx69
Sup,
Yea when u slip down to a lower gear going too fast the toque and lack of weight on the rear wheel causes it to skip or slide., can be pretty dangerous if you lock it. I usually only downshift to 4th or 3rd never second or first unless i am going really slow, i am by NO means a pro but just though i would share my 2 cents.
John
'00 Gsxr 600
True. Unless your bike has a slipper clutch. Some bikes come equipped with them to prevent the wheel from locking up when downshifting too fast.
__________________
1999 Suzuki TL1000R, Yosh RS-3, TRE, PC II, Custom Paint, OEM sweetness
TL chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2004, 09:09 PM   #5 (permalink)
Tire Eating Moderator
 
Freakinout's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Bike: 2001 Suzuki TL1000S
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,611
Default

The wheel slipped based on what the other guys said.

Now to the weight shifts:

If you are braking, either with brakes, or engine breaking, the weight gets transferred to the front (ie. another reason the rear slips so much easier). If you slow down then the weight goes to the front wheel. If you accelerate the weight goes to the back, reguardless of means.
__________________
Freakinout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2004, 10:45 PM   #6 (permalink)
U.B's LoveChild
 
GIXXER-Mike's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Bike: 2004 GSX-R600 (Blue/White)
Location: ALABAMA
Posts: 1,113
Default

Good points. I'm still trying different things when stopping to see which feels best & causes the least amount of wear & tear .

Downshifting should be good but then again I still have to use the front brakes because it doesn't stop me properly & I always end up using the throttle to get closer to the cage in front of me . Also, using both front & rear brakes has been tried as well but this makes me burn my pads more? Heck, the more I read the more I try but nothing is definite for me at this point.

Seems like you have two choices when it comes to braking...over time you will either:

1. Wear out your brake pads
2. Strain or wear out your gears.

To me, the pads are easier to replace . No sense in ruining both. Any suggestions from the experts?

__________________
"I'm here to fight for truth, and justice, and the American way."
GIXXER-Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2004, 10:52 PM   #7 (permalink)
Tire Eating Moderator
 
Freakinout's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Bike: 2001 Suzuki TL1000S
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,611
Default

I'd suggest you do whatever feels best to you. I know V-twin people (twin cylinder engines too) like to use engine braking a lot more than most I-4 riders. (all sportbikes here). When you are riding on the streets within your limits then its just whatever you feel is best. I wouldn't worry about wear of the chain drive or pads when you are deciding on how you are going to brake.
__________________
Freakinout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2004, 10:58 PM   #8 (permalink)
Muscle Biker
 
inspiron's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Bike: Blue Suzuki GSX 1400 (2003)
Location: Canton Basel-Land, Switzerland (47.4493, 7.76536)
Posts: 11,947
Send a message via Skype™ to inspiron
Default

In "More Proficient Motorcycling", Hough repeats several times that engine braking is basically the same as hitting the REAR brake (obviously, since the engine is connected to the rear wheel through the chain or belt). If you lock up the rear wheel by hitting the rear brake too hard or by downshifting too agressively, the physics are the same. No worries, though. Locking up the rear end can be practiced and is no cause for panic. As the instructor in my last safety course said as we were practicing braking on dirt - just relax and look where you want to go ... your a$$ knows what to do to keep the bike straight.

And remember, about 70% to 80% of your braking power comes from the front brakes, so always use the front and rear brakes together to get the maximum braking effect. And a new set of brake pads is still alot cheaper than repairing ANY accident damage.
__________________

There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
blog: gsx1400
inspiron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2004, 11:14 PM   #9 (permalink)
U.B's LoveChild
 
GIXXER-Mike's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Bike: 2004 GSX-R600 (Blue/White)
Location: ALABAMA
Posts: 1,113
Default

I've been reading slowly & carefully. Right now I'm on page 81 of "Proficient Motorcycling: The Ultimate Guide To Riding Well," the section titled Quick Stop Practice.

Still reading & awaiting something in the book to reach out & grab me. It's got a lot of good stuff but nothing has grabbed me just yet (I'm on page 81).
__________________
"I'm here to fight for truth, and justice, and the American way."
GIXXER-Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2004, 11:18 PM   #10 (permalink)
Tin Foil Inspector
 
SDSUsnowboards's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Bike: 2000 CBR600f4
Location: Southern California
Posts: 764
Send a message via AIM to SDSUsnowboards
Default

Does engine braking really put any more stress on your engine than accelerating? I nomally engine brake. I'll blip it and let the clutch out as fast as possible while letting the rear tire keep traction. I'll never use engine braking where I have to blip it faster than 9K to make the trasition smooth... it can also be pretty easy to lock up your rear tire at that speed I understand. I'm pretty good cuz that's what I've been doing with my car since the day I started driving. I use the brakes for hard stops or stopping completely. Anyways, my original question though. Dunno if I should keep engine braking or not... it's fun though and sounds cool.
__________________
The notion should be deleted from your noggin.
-FIVEINCH
SDSUsnowboards is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2004, 11:31 PM   #11 (permalink)
Muscle Biker
 
inspiron's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Bike: Blue Suzuki GSX 1400 (2003)
Location: Canton Basel-Land, Switzerland (47.4493, 7.76536)
Posts: 11,947
Send a message via Skype™ to inspiron
Default

As long as you aren't reving over the redline by downshifting, there is no harm to the engine or gearbox. Geez, the're designed for that! The stress on the components is no different than accellerating - it's just reversed.

When accellerating, more gas/air is forced into the cylinder, which causes is to explode more violently, pushing faster on the camshaft, which speeds up the gearbox and the rear tire. There is a loss of energy in each of these steps - the pistons have friction within the cylinder walls and in the connection to the camshaft, the gearbox has internal resistance, alot of energy is lost through the flex of the chain. You don't notice this, though, since you are accellerating.

When using engine braking, the rear tire wants more speed from the gearbox, which transfers this to the camshaft, making it turn faster and causing the pistons to rise and fall faster, pulling more mix into the cylinders. Since each of these components introduces some resistance (none of these can transfer 100% of the energy onto the next component), the net result is an engine brake.
__________________

There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
blog: gsx1400
inspiron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2004, 06:34 AM   #12 (permalink)
In Training
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 146
Default

Man, lots of great responses here!!! Thanks a lot. I'm getting pretty good at the downshifting/engine braking now. My goal with it is to make it very smooth, slowing down without making a lot of engine noise, or jerking the bike around at all, especially when I have a passenger behind me. I am usually using a combination of front brake and the engine, so it's probably a good balance. I only spun out the back tire that one time, and lately have been coming to a stop very smoothly, and where I want to. I don't find I end up using first gear much for stopping - once I get down to second, I end up putting the clutch in, popping it into first, and then coasting to my stopping point. It leaves me the option to stay in second, if traffic starts moving again, and since I'm below 10 or 12 mph at that point, the brakes alone are good.

I guess I'll keep playing with it till it gets just right! I like to make the engine purr, more than to make it roar!

__________________
My motto is "In all things - moderation." Of course, that means that even moderation needs to be practiced in moderation!
wavyredlaurie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2004, 06:43 AM   #13 (permalink)
Tire Eating Moderator
 
Freakinout's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Bike: 2001 Suzuki TL1000S
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,611
Default

Really if you are downshift you want to make sure your RPMs in the lower gear are less than 5 or 6K.
__________________
Freakinout is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
C50 Braking Ability Boulevard Billy Cruisers 30 06-09-2006 10:26 AM
M50 Braking Power BlueMax Marauder M50 Secret Hideaway 9 05-01-2006 05:51 AM
S83 Boulevard Braking....... sky captain Cruisers 4 01-04-2006 02:39 PM
braking before cornering? BillyBumbler The Paddock 4 11-13-2005 07:04 PM
Braking in a turn... FIVEINCH Tips & Training 23 10-26-2004 10:38 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:22 AM.
Blackbird Forums


Copyright 2008, Suzuki-Bikes.com
Motorcycle-Journal Forums

SEO by vBSEO ©2008, Crawlability, Inc.