A Question of M-J Forum Ethics...

[B-Rex]

I've been watching a thread on here where a new fellow was talking about a bit of street dragracing and the fact that his bike didn't perform very well. Predictably, he was flacked fairly briskly by several forum members for squidlike behavior. Unquestionably, the flackers were on the side of right and intended to save this fellow some grief or worse.

Now the intention of this fellow's posting was a request for information regarding why his bike performed poorly and he was essentially asking for a solution to the "problem". Well there actually is a very good and inexpensive solution to his problem and, with a bit of research on his part he could find the information easily online.

My questions on the M-J ethics are:

1) Is it ethical to provide this person with the information?
Or, is it ethical to withhold the information "for his own good?
2) If it IS ethical to withhold the information in this case, how do you decide when you should or should not share such information?

I'm very curious as to how some of you handle this sort of thing here.

Thanks,

B-Rex

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Good question.

[frostbitevinnie]

I agree.

[amvince]

I would not give the infomation because I don't want to be the one who helps this kid become a statistic. I'm sure he will find the information somewhere else I just wouldn't contribute. Easy to say now after surviving some really stupid behavior in the past.

[Clint]

We have had a poll asking a very similar question. Might be worth checking out.

http://www.motorcycle-journal.com/fo...red-bikes.html

With regard to withholding information, I don't think there's any point in that. For me, the question is whether we should provide more discourse than was requested by the OP.

[Easy Rider]

Originally Posted by B-Rex

1) Is it ethical to provide this person with the information?
Or, is it ethical to withhold the information "for his own good?

I'm very curious as to how some of you handle this sort of thing here.

Assuming your assumptions are correct...........then I think it's a personal thing.

Now maybe the fact that the original post was...mmmm..."honest" enough to indicate that the intent was street racing, makes some kind of moral difference. The same question could have easily been asked without the reference to illegal/dumb activity and then nobody would have balked at giving information to correct a "not running right" problem.

I really think that the OP's bike is running just fine and he doesn't understand the technique required to make a good hole shot on a bike.....or a cage either for that matter. If you don't bring the revs. up enough and know how to dump the clutch without flipping over, then all street bikes will exhibit a "flat spot" in starting out.

Given the intent of his original post, was giving out that information morally wrong? Same dilema as with the assumption that he really has performance problem with the bike, I guess.

[1badbaker]

A very good question, I think there will be many differing opinions on this.

The way I look at it is this: if he had said he was on a closed track and not street racing, he may not have been flogged. While he is able to find the information anywhere, he knows that there is a vast wealth of experience and knowledge, that he has come to trust, here.

I think it is each person's individual responsibility to take the information they have, apply it to their situation, and make their own decision about what they are going to do with it. Yes, we need to point out the major downfalls, issues, illegalities,etc. of what is being done, but it is still that person's choice whether or not they are going to take part in that behavior.

If the M-J members find it against their ethical views to contribute their information to that situation, than withhold your information. If you feel like you can contribute to help a fellow rider, no matter what they are doing, than contribute. Our ethics are individual viewpoints and unless there are forum rules governing the posting of information as it pertains to dangerous situations, it is an individual's choice to do so or not do so. We can't force our views on other people, they will do whatever they want. If they know that we don't agree, or will berate them for their choices, they will be less open about the situation and simply ask the question without the background information.

I would point out the dangers and stupidity of the behavior, but I think I would still contribute any information I had to help solve the problem.

[Uncle B]

Back when I was a Freshman in high school I road raced my first bike. I figured out on my own how to beat people off the line. Of course I was to also defeat Superman at that time, so I chose not to post any infromation in that post/tread.

[B-Rex]

Originally Posted by 1badbaker

A very good question, I think there will be many differing opinions on this.

The way I look at it is this: if he had said he was on a closed track and not street racing, he may not have been flogged. While he is able to find the information anywhere, he knows that there is a vast wealth of experience and knowledge, that he has come to trust, here.

I think it is each person's individual responsibility to take the information they have, apply it to their situation, and make their own decision about what they are going to do with it. Yes, we need to point out the major downfalls, issues, illegalities,etc. of what is being done, but it is still that person's choice whether or not they are going to take part in that behavior.

If the M-J members find it against their ethical views to contribute their information to that situation, than withhold your information. If you feel like you can contribute to help a fellow rider, no matter what they are doing, than contribute. Our ethics are individual viewpoints and unless there are forum rules governing the posting of information as it pertains to dangerous situations, it is an individual's choice to do so or not do so. We can't force our views on other people, they will do whatever they want. If they know that we don't agree, or will berate them for their choices, they will be less open about the situation and simply ask the question without the background information.

I would point out the dangers and stupidity of the behavior, but I think I would still contribute any information I had to help solve the problem.

I have a tendency to agree with you, here's why:

1) In order for us as a "group" to CREDIBLY berate someone for obviously dangerous, youthful behavior (and of course, behavior none of us have ever done ), IMHO, we (as a group) have to ALSO be willing to provide the help to that person he/she has asked for. This is important because there needs to be a "carrot" with that "stick".

2) And, continuing from #1 above, simply stated, we are going to be much more effective in ACTUALLY helping that person if he/she returns to M-J and continues to read and participate rather than pissing them off and they never come back.

Now that being said, please don't think I'm criticizing the others who responded negatively. I have no doubt they intended to do "good". And, as was pointed out by one response above, there is a definite skilll and experience component in achieving a good dragracing outcome (i.e. learning to tap the powerband of a high revving engine at launch). However, there are also a few very simple mechanical/electronic changes that can help tap the powerband of certain engine types (i.e. especially Suzuki/Kawasaki 4-cylinder engines a 1000 ccs or higher).

Anyway, I gave a lot of thought to telling the fellow that for $100 he could boost his bike's "off the line" capabilities. But, so far, I haven't said anything because, despite what I noted above, I'm not sure I want to contribute to a possible "splat". So, I will continue to read the forum member's responses for the time being and think about it.

Ethical considerations are rarely "black or white". Very interesting responses so far.

B-Rex

[B-Rex]

Originally Posted by RowdyRed94

We have had a poll asking a very similar question. Might be worth checking out.

http://www.motorcycle-journal.com/fo...red-bikes.html

With regard to withholding information, I don't think there's any point in that. For me, the question is whether we should provide more discourse than was requested by the OP.

Rowdy, thanks for the link. Yes, it does cover a similar issue. However, in this case, the bike has already been purchased and, for better or worse, the ethics change somewhat due to that.

Anyway, I (and apparently, some others as well) look forward to more responses. Ethics are rarely simple

B-Rex

[jprisme]

uncle b can you teach me how to defeat superman. i have always wondered that. haha.

[MikeHump]

Originally Posted by B-Rex

However, in this case, the bike has already been purchased and, for better or worse, the ethics change somewhat due to that.

Everyone has different views on morals and ethics. I don't believe that ethics should change depending on a situation, people need to stay true to what they believe in. If you change your ethics depending on the situation, you're being somewhat hypocritical IMO. If you choose to tell one person how to drag race a bike, and another person with less experience asks about the same thing, you should tell them as well. However, you should explain the circumstances to trying these things BEFORE you tell them how. You need to break down the situation to them, present the dangers to them, and tell them that they should practice a little more of the basic riding techniques before learning how to drag race.

I personally don't know how to launch a motorcycle correctly in a drag race (although I'm sure it's fairly similar to launching a car in a drag race), so I just told about the dangers of racing on public roads and gave a suggestion for a legal alternative.

[falcon]

Sililar delima:
I grew up with Bob (same age used to play together when young, Fathers were good friends) anyhow he started the local Yamaha dealership. One day a guy came into buy a Z1000, Bob wouldn't sell it to him, because he felt he couldn't handle it. When I pointed out the loss of a customer and loss of money and that he would go elsewhere. Bob replied "Yes but al least I can sleep peacefully at night" that was in 1974."

[B-Rex]

Originally Posted by MikeHump

Everyone has different views on morals and ethics. I don't believe that ethics should change depending on a situation, people need to stay true to what they believe in. If you change your ethics depending on the situation, you're being somewhat hypocritical IMO.

Please let me clarify, lest I be seen to be hypocritical.

First off, what "changes" is the fact that the guy now owns the bike and has already tried to drag race it on the street. Secondly, Rowdy's thread referred to "pre-purchase" warnings against buying a bike innapropriate to the individual's skill level and how to respond to said potential purchasers.

I wouldn't have a problem discussing the theoreticals behind the simple modification which would boost the bike's "off-the-line" capabilities. However, in this particular case, the individiual I'm referring to would only be a $100 away from doing it for real. Additionally, he has already indicated that he has attempted to race on the street. Therefore, the ethics "change" because the dangers of him doing the mod and using it are very real.

Hence my question.

B-Rex

[B-Rex]

Originally Posted by falcon

Sililar delima:
I grew up with Bob (same age used to play together when young, Fathers were good friends) anyhow he started the local Yamaha dealership. One day a guy came into buy a Z1000, Bob wouldn't sell it to him, because he felt he couldn't handle it. When I pointed out the loss of a customer and loss of money and that he would go elsewhere. Bob replied "Yes but al least I can sleep peacefully at night" that was in 1974."

I have an analgous situation that I personally experienced. The solution in that case was very elegant and effective.

About 10 years ago, after having had some pilot training, I decided that I wanted to build a sportplane and fly it. However, despite my previous training, I wasn't particularly confident that I would be able to safely pilot the craft even if I built it correctly. Nonetheless I looked into the the purchase of the sportplane kit. The dealer advised me that he would be happy to sell me the kit. But, in order for him to do so, I had to agree (which I did readily) to training at his dealership before I bought the plane.

So, I took the training (and additional training after my plane was built) prior to flying it. It all worked out well. The dealer made a good sale AND was able to sleep at night.

Now, while I didn't turn out to be a great pilot, I did manage to fly my little plane safely for a few years before I sold it.

So, there is an "ethical" solution to insufficient experience/skill/training before one is sold a potentially lethal machine. Maybe such a thing is not practical for motorcycle dealers, I don't know.

In this situation, there is no way to insure the potential rider would be trained or even educated in the capabilities of his newly boosted bike. Publishing a solution to his "problem" in the forum offers no guarantees.

Hence the dilemma remains.

B-Rex

[1badbaker]

Originally Posted by MikeHump

Everyone has different views on morals and ethics. I don't believe that ethics should change depending on a situation, people need to stay true to what they believe in. If you change your ethics depending on the situation, you're being somewhat hypocritical IMO.

I agree with you on this to an extent. Sometimes you have to look at the specifics of the situation before applying your moral/ethical judgement to them.

Although in general you are talking about making the same mod to a bike to get the same result, in one situation you are talking "in theory." In the other, you are aiding someone who has the bike and is going to do the mod. When added on the fact that this person has already engaged in dangerous behavior, that most of us don't agree with, there is another specific factor added to change the situation enough to make it almost wholly different than the "in theory" situation. Thus, your ethical/moral views and decisions could be wholly different as well. IMHO it doesn't mean you have changed your ethics or morals, it just means (in this situation) you will discuss technical items in theory, but not to assist someone in something you don't condone.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Here's the twist I think we're missing. Little Steve-O decides "I must own a ZX-14, or I will be worthless and weak". He decides to do a little internet research and finds M-J. He wants to know how to pass his endorsement test.

He posts, gets flamed, and looks for someone less--stringent? So he goes to www.FTPSTUNTEMUPSMP.FORUM where he gets some lovely input on how "DUDE! You need a power commander! Here's how to beat your 300kph limiter! FTP! Wheelie! Street Drags near you! Lying safety weasels and why a wifebeater is better than leather!"

And promptly goes out and get killed...On YouTube.

Is it all his fault? Or does anyone at the first contact point bear any ethical or moral responsibility for NOT engaging him in a helpful way?

It's a hard question easily brushed off with platitudes like "Everyone's responsible for themselves!" I think we SHOULD all struggle with it a little.

[busa-boy33]

Just going to throw down my 2 cents here.

We may not condone a persons actions or what they choose to do with their bike, but I don't think we have the right to enforce good riding behavior off on anyone. If person wants to ride their bike a certain way, too fast, knee dragging or drag racing then its up to them to deal with consequences of their actions. We can not force people to hold our views on proper riding whether they are squidding or drag racing.

People collect information and can do with it whatever they want. It would be no different if I came in here wanting advice on which was the fasted street bike out there because I love to speed and people deciding not to tell me because its against their convictions to speed.

I think we may offer an opinion that what they are doing can get them killed or hurt or arrested but what they do with what information they get is their own business. You can't force people to ride the way you do no more then forcing a person to hold the same views on life as you do.

Bottom line.. give him the information or advice then let him decide how best to use it. If its something illegal then the local police dept. can deal with that issue.

[Apertureguy]

Who am I to judge the morals of another?



I can only do what feels right to me.

[Clint]

"Judging" and "discussing" are two different things.