A Question of M-J Forum Ethics...

[1badbaker]

Originally Posted by RowdyRed94

"Judging" and "discussing" are two different things.

[inspiron]

For the record, I've never (purposely) insulted anyone, but I have on many occasions told people that they should reconsider their decision, using more brain and less testosterone.

If someone is dead set on buying a machine that is too powerful for them (similar to a 16-year-old buying a Porsche 962), the only advice we can give is to take training and be very careful.

If someone comes here and asks for stunting tips, they will probably get flamed, since we are not a stunting forum. Most of the people here are mature, responsible riders. We may know how to do stunts, but we aren't going to do anything to help some kids get hurt or killed by giving them tips and encouragement.

If you want to ride really, really fast, that's great. Book a track day and learn how to do it right. There is a time and a place for everything. Wheelieing at 90mph down Interstate 5 is not the right place or the right time.

[tricker]

i once did a wheelie at about 80mph on accident
kinda surprised me and well haven't done that since

[intimid8er]

Damn....that "Tabletop" off the steep driveway crown in the 7-11 parking lot this morninng prolly wasn't a good idea then......

[drgibson]

There is a kid that I go to church with who had ridden his dad's old '70 Kawasaki 175cc trail bike for a few years when they owned some property for him to ride it on. It is the only bike he had ever ridden and it has been 3 years since he rode it.

A few months ago he came to me asking about a good rode bike and we discussed the options out there. For his 19th birthday he went out and bought himself a 2007 GSX-R 750, no it wasn’t on the list we discussed.

It was the only advice of mine about getting started he didn’t take. He bought all the right gear and took the MSF before he took delivery on the bike.

The first I heard about him buying the bike is when he showed up at church for practice and I was the GSX-R helmet, I called him a moron, he agreed. He had been of possession of the bike for 2 weeks and it was scaring the crap outta him (I guess it has a little more power then the 175 or the 250 in the MSF class). So he asked for some pointers and wanted me to ride it to see if I thought the throttle was too sensitive, I declined the offer telling him that that was the nature of the beast.

Since then we have gone on a couple of short rides and practiced some slow speed maneuvers in the parking lot and using the clutch to temper the quickness of the throttle while he learns to manage applying the right amount of throttle.

While I think it was a very poor choice for him to buy that bike I believe that as long as he'll listen I need to help and encourage him to practice the skills he needs to be a safe rider. Mayby someday he will actually develop his skills to the point that wants to take that beast to the track to see what it can really do.

So when there is time and the weather permits we go out in the country and ride. He’s so cute when he tucks down behind the windscreen while going down the roads at a blistering 40mph.

[MikeHump]

Originally Posted by busa-boy33

Just going to throw down my 2 cents here.

We may not condone a persons actions or what they choose to do with their bike, but I don't think we have the right to enforce good riding behavior off on anyone. If person wants to ride their bike a certain way, too fast, knee dragging or drag racing then its up to them to deal with consequences of their actions. We can not force people to hold our views on proper riding whether they are squidding or drag racing.

People collect information and can do with it whatever they want. It would be no different if I came in here wanting advice on which was the fasted street bike out there because I love to speed and people deciding not to tell me because its against their convictions to speed.

I think we may offer an opinion that what they are doing can get them killed or hurt or arrested but what they do with what information they get is their own business. You can't force people to ride the way you do no more then forcing a person to hold the same views on life as you do.

Bottom line.. give him the information or advice then let him decide how best to use it. If its something illegal then the local police dept. can deal with that issue.

I agree completely.

Oh, and on my previous post, I wasn't trying to start an argument or anything, just putting in my two cents.

[themeatmanlandry]

I think it goes without saying that a person owes the other human beings a word or two of caution when they see a person ignorant to a certain threat about to become injured by said threat.

If my family brought over an exchange student and he was from a country that didn't have guns, as a decent human being I would be obligated to say, "Hey. That goes bang-bang. Don't point it at your face." if he got ahold of one.

Same thing with motorcycles. If we (as riders and humans) don't take it upon ourselves to warn newer riders about the dangers out there, who IS going to warn them? The salesman at the dealership? Not bloody likely. He wants to eat and odds are that he's selling LOTS of cratch rackets to people that aren't ready.

That said, if a person chooses NOT to take the advice offered, just forget about it and move on. Let them skid their head 40 miles on the asphalt. What do you care? You tried. It's not like you MADE them into a dumbass. Some people are going to take themselves out no matter how many people caution them. If they can't afford the motorcycle yet, odds are they'll find some other self-destructive pasttime to test their fate.

In the end, we have many, many things working against us on this issue. Here's the four that immediately come to mind:

1) Pretty bikes - Let's face it . . . motorcycles are pretty. In general (to me at least) the faster the bike goes, the more attractive it is.

2) Speed - Speed is very attractive to some members of the population. I must admit, I'm a bit of an addict myself. Can't put my finger on it, but it's cool to watch that dashed centerline turn solid. People like speed and for this reason the GSXR will always be more attractive than the GZ.

3) Peer pressure - Peer pressure's a %%%%%. Sadly, the opinion of a "cool" ignoramus far outweighs any input from some unknown rider cautioning someone against killing theirself.

4) Stupidity - General stupidity is like a disease. It robs the body of life eventually. We're all stupid at one time or another. It is this stupidity that puts the icing on the cake.



So, in short, "yes" we are responsible for cautioning new (and experienced) riders . . . and "no" we aren't responsible when they skid their heads 40 miles if we tried to tell them not to.

My take.

[Clint]

Interesting. You seem to have opposite mindsets with regard to motorcycling and mortages.

[themeatmanlandry]

Originally Posted by RowdyRed94

Interesting. You seem to have opposite mindsets with regard to motorcycling and mortages.

No, I'll caution anyone about risk that I am aware of . . . but I don't want to pay for the mess when the dust settles.

(I only said I'd caution the new rider about the proper bike . . . I never said I wanted to insure it and pay the deductible when he/she makes a poor choice)

[B-Rex]

Originally Posted by RowdyRed94

"Judging" and "discussing" are two different things.

I completely agree with this. And, for what it's worth and at least to me, this discussion has been very worthwhile. It has not been about being judgmental per se. It has been a discussion about ethical treatment of an apparently misguided newbie.

I think most all of us agree that providing appropriate warnings to folks who are making (or about to make) dangerous decisions is a reasonable thing to do. However, it still begs the question of whether or not we should or should not go farther and provide that person with information that, if he/she doesn't heed the warnings given, could facilitate them killing themselves.

I don't really have any ethical problems with giving out good guidance. We all can use that at times. But in this particular case, the mod that I could have suggested would deliver more torque, more quickly, to the rear wheel in the lower gears. It is EXACTLY what he wanted to know and EXACTLY the thing that would make his bike even harder to control if he is inexperienced with hard launches (which he obviously is). In fact, it overrides the built-in ECU programming that delays the onset of full torque during lower gear acceleration. It is particularly effective with Suzuki and Kawasaki in-line, 4 cylinder engines, particularly those 1000 ccs or greater.

Based on some thought and the forum member's comments, I don't think I'm going to post the mod in the fellow's thread. Maybe after he has ridden for a while and finds a safe place to practice hard launches, I would reconsider. The one I have ordered for my Bee is manually switchable. But you have to have enough sense to leave it switched off until the right time and place!

B-Rex

[Clint]

You've eloquently described two different phenomena, B-Rex. As I see it, the former (providing advice) is a positive, or cumulative, action. It provides more information than the individual was requesting or expecting. This allows more informed decision-making while leaving the autonomy of the person intact.

Withholding information, however, enters another realm - that of control. I don't think I can bring myself to decide for another person what information he/she is capable of possessing. I may choose not to answer a question out of laziness or disdain for a person, but not out of some sense of imposed well-being. It just feels too arrogant that I would decide, with only the guidance of a few words in cyberspace, what's good for another person. That would be the very definition of judgmental.

[B-Rex]

Originally Posted by RowdyRed94

Withholding information, however, enters another realm - that of control. I don't think I can bring myself to decide for another person what information he/she is capable of possessing. I may choose not to answer a question out of laziness or disdain for a person, but not out of some sense of imposed well-being. It just feels too arrogant that I would decide, with only the guidance of a few words in cyberspace, what's good for another person. That would be the very definition of judgmental.

Rowdy, there is another way to look at this you might consider. Rather than seeing the withholding of the information as being judgmental and/or arrogant, which you have made a fair case for, it may also simply be a matter of choice on my part. As follows:

I feel there is a certain "duty" to help anyone, who I am able to, that would derive benefit from my help. I may not always want to help (like for the reasons you gave why you might not) but I generally will do so if it can benefit that person.

On the other hand, I do not feel a "duty" to provide that which is not a benefit. And yes, this does require me to make a some form judgment. But then so does providing help that DOES provide a benefit. I have to judge, from my frame of reference, whether or not what I have to give will be beneficial.

Easy things like helping a fellow motorcyclist on the side of the road, require little judgment. More difficult things might be giving a person I don't know $10 because they asked me for it. In such a case I have to consider whether or not it is going to be used for crack or for food. In my frame of reference, I have to use what I know and perceive about the person, at that moment, to make the judgment. When doing so, I realize I still may be wrong whatever I decide. It's a risk both I and the requesting person take in that circumstance.

At this point, I do not see it as "beneficial" providing information that will make the requesting fellow's bike less controllable. It's sort of like crack cocaine. I don't consider it my business if someone wants to use it. But, I don't feel any sort of obligation to facilitate their habit.

That doesn't mean I would judge you or someone else harshly because you/them decided to give a crackhead $10. I just know that it is not "right" for me to do it within my ethical framework.

And, it's not the "few" words I read here that allowed me to make the decision I have made. But what the words here DID do is make it obvious to me that, as usual in tough ethical considerations, I have to decide what's right from my own frame of reference. Furthermore, I think it is an interesting topic and it gives me a "feel" for some of the folks here and how they think. It may have also been useful to some others. That I don't know.

B-Rex

[Clint]

How dare you provide an alternative, yet equally compelling, viewpoint?

[B-Rex]

Originally Posted by RowdyRed94

How dare you provide an alternative, yet equally compelling, viewpoint?

LOL...thanks!

B-Rex

[Aussie Steve]

I just spent a few moments scanning thes responses and have decided to reply in order to inflate my posts to 500....thank you very much!!!

[tricker]

Originally Posted by Aussie Steve

I just spent a few moments scanning thes responses and have decided to reply in order to inflate my posts to 500....thank you very much!!!

[Clint]

Originally Posted by Aussie Steve

I just spent a few moments scanning thes responses and have decided to reply in order to inflate my posts to 500....thank you very much!!!

Way to get your needle up!

[inspiron]

A blue pill for posts?

Very interesting...

[Uncle Bob]

Just took an ethics course, not sure we covered street racing though.

Just a family here, using I hope common sense. No obligation to give any info to anybody. We do what we do because we want to. We choose to respect the site parameters, basically to encourage safe responsable riding.

Not handing out on a silver platter info to some newbie too lazy to use the search function the answer as to how to break the law more is certainly one valid option.

We aim to help, will the squid turn to other sources of information, probably. That'll be his loss not ours. Hopefully he'll hit a few likeminded sites and get a few more flamings.

But he has had at least one warning that not all bikers condone "Rebel" attitudes and disregard for social values along with a death wish.

Do we start selling crack because if we don't he'll just go buy it from somebody else that doesn't use the same fine grade of ingredients we would ?

[Clint]

Uggh. I was with you until you compared knowledge to crack.