my opinions

[vampyregirl]

i think harley and honda share the same problem. neither try to innovate much. they rely on there name alone to sell bikes. yamaha tries to hard. the recent yamaha recalls are a case in point. suzuki is as close to perfection as it gets. kawasaki and triumph are gaining on them. bmw is good but overpriced. new kids on the block like american victory and korean hyosung are making progress, especially victory. so is buell. i just might be willing to trade in my gixer for the new 1125R. maybe. anyway thats my two cents on the bike makers im familair with. anyone agree or disagree?

[wookie]

Opinions are like buttholes (since the a-word is banned): everyone has one and everyone else's stinks.

[geoffsimpson]

This should get the group fired up....I have to disagree Vamp, on parts of it. I will agree with you on the Honda cruiser class in particular the cruiser line up, But I have to say that even harley is starting to work it. I believe that you are in fact seeing the different manufactures starting to push the envelope more than they ever have before, mind you it's only the beginning.

If you think about the competetion in the industry (again cruisers in particular) there are a lot of bikes, all with different attributes that are targetted directly to their respective demo's.

That being said, it's been slow to start and somebody really needs to shake things up a bit. Thats why I bought the M50 after all...it was different

[MoonRunner]

I hate to say it but Harley, Honda and BMW can afford to sit back and enjoy name brand sales. Be honest and think; How many 20-25 year old Suzukis, Yamahas, and Kawasakis do you still see driving the streets? Now compare that number to the big 3. They have made a name for themselves and it does contribute to sales. As far as the others; they haven't innovated much of anything. They just make more and larger cc copies of Harleys and BMWs. BMWs have made the larger displacement dual purpose TOURING bikes for quite some time. You know like the 500 and 650 cc kawasakis we've seen alot of fairly recently. And where have all the big Kawyamasuki inline fours gone. Well, they are crotch rockets if you consider them inovative but all the cruisers and most of the touring machines are Harley, Indian (Vulcan Drifter) copies. And Honda was agin the early leader in the sport tour and go-fast market agin followed by the others. I see nothing innovative there. And metric folks rave about the POWER over Harleys. Well, lets compare apples to apples. Harleys were until last year 1450cc V-twins (88ci). But folks keep wanting to compare them to 1803cc Gold wings, 1800cc VTXs, 2000cc Kawasakis and whatever Yamahas latest horse is. Gee, size does matter!!!! What the metric folks have done well is make numerous small and mid-size mahines that are great starter bikes and many even well beyond a starter but they are throw aways in the fact that they have changed so often that you can't buy or it isn't worth buying parts to repair them when they get crashed or wear out. Not for most folks any way. There are junkyards full of metric bikes. Are there junkyards full of Gold Wings, Harleys, and BMWs? I think not for the most part.
BMW by the way has stepped up significantly. Look at their latest lineup. They have a sport version cranking over 150 horsepower. That's something the could care less about til recently. Harley built the V-rod mainly to try for appeal to the younger market and merged with buell for the sport market. They have to be careful how innovative they get with the old standby V-twin until more of us 50-75 year old die-hards trade our bikes for wheel chairs. We want old core looks and feel with hidden upgrades. We don't buy V-rods for the most part and guess what, we whom have worked for 40 years and our families are grown: WE HAVE THE CASH. So we are the market. I'm not saying I'm rich, I'm just saying I'm not raising a family or putting money away for college. I buy what I want as do millions of other folks like me now on our second or third career.

[Kodatech]

Originally Posted by MoonRunner

I hate to say it but Harley, Honda and BMW can afford to sit back and enjoy name brand sales. Be honest and think; How many 20-25 year old Suzukis, Yamahas, and Kawasakis do you still see driving the streets? Now compare that number to the big 3. They have made a name for themselves and it does contribute to sales. As far as the others; they haven't innovated much of anything. They just make more and larger cc copies of Harleys and BMWs. BMWs have made the larger displacement dual purpose TOURING bikes for quite some time. You know like the 500 and 650 cc kawasakis we've seen alot of fairly recently. And where have all the big Kawyamasuki inline fours gone. Well, they are crotch rockets if you consider them inovative but all the cruisers and most of the touring machines are Harley, Indian (Vulcan Drifter) copies. And Honda was agin the early leader in the sport tour and go-fast market agin followed by the others. I see nothing innovative there. And metric folks rave about the POWER over Harleys. Well, lets compare apples to apples. Harleys were until last year 1450cc V-twins (88ci). But folks keep wanting to compare them to 1803cc Gold wings, 1800cc VTXs, 2000cc Kawasakis and whatever Yamahas latest horse is. Gee, size does matter!!!! What the metric folks have done well is make numerous small and mid-size mahines that are great starter bikes and many even well beyond a starter but they are throw aways in the fact that they have changed so often that you can't buy or it isn't worth buying parts to repair them when they get crashed or wear out. Not for most folks any way. There are junkyards full of metric bikes. Are there junkyards full of Gold Wings, Harleys, and BMWs? I think not for the most part.
BMW by the way has stepped up significantly. Look at their latest lineup. They have a sport version cranking over 150 horsepower. That's something the could care less about til recently. Harley built the V-rod mainly to try for appeal to the younger market and merged with buell for the sport market. They have to be careful how innovative they get with the old standby V-twin until more of us 50-75 year old die-hards trade our bikes for wheel chairs. We want old core looks and feel with hidden upgrades. We don't buy V-rods for the most part and guess what, we whom have worked for 40 years and our families are grown: WE HAVE THE CASH. So we are the market. I'm not saying I'm rich, I'm just saying I'm not raising a family or putting money away for college. I buy what I want as do millions of other folks like me now on our second or third career.

I don't agree with alot of this. Around here I see WAY more 20-25 year old suzuki, kawasaki, and honda bikes than 20-25 year old Harley and BMW bikes combined.

The Suzuki Intruder, and GSX-R lines are some of the most popular bikes ever produced, and there are lots of them running around from the mid-80's. Hmm...can't remember the last time I saw a 1980-something HD that was actually running.

The Kawasaki Ninja line is also one of the most popular bikes ever made, and there are even more old ninjas than there are suzukis....remember the 80's when EVERYONE who thought of sportbike automatically thought "ninja"? Cant remember when people mis-took an ENTIRE class of bike for a BMW.

Honda has made some of the most reliable bikes out there. Some of the most refined bikes and easiest to live with, but they don't always do much emotionally or visually.

Harley sells an "image" and DOES make the most classic styled cruisers out there. They are reliable NOW and dont piss oil everywhere like they used to.

Anyway, Every manufacturer relies on something. Whether it is tradition like HD. Cutting edge styling like Yamaha. Huge horsepower numbers like Suzuki and Kawasaki. It doesnt matter, they all do different things well, but to say that Kawasaki and Suzuki don't make reliable bikes is the most stupid and false statement ever made about the two companies.


Harley BMW and Honda make very reliable bikes, But the only one of those "big 3" that is even in the REALM of reliability with suzuki and kawasaki is honda.

[geoffsimpson]

Originally Posted by MoonRunner

all the cruisers and most of the touring machines are Harley, Indian (Vulcan Drifter) copies.

With the majority of your posts showing you to be a particularly well informed rider, where did you find this little gem?

"ALL"? Seriously? You're coming to the table with the word "ALL"!? With this group, I'd think that you would give us at least some credit and realize that many of us actually have a rough idea what we're talking about as it pertains to our own personal bikes. You show me one person who looks at my M50 and think it looks like a Harley and I'll show you a person who's never riden a day in his or her life. All cruisers are no more HD knock off's than All hot rods are Shoebox Chevy's

Your afore mentioned statement is competely absurd, take that one back and try again.

[MoonRunner]

Kodatech,
I notice you didn't give an explanation of why the metrics cut back the in-line four lines so much and all maximized production of the V-twins. Doesn't the older Suzuki Intruder look an awful lot like the Honda Shadow built a while before the intruder. And why did all the metric manufacturers even start making V-twins if not to copy Harley and Indian. The v-twins sure as heck weren't in the original metric line and the metrics didn't switch to V-twins because they made more power or were smoother. Might it have been that the Big V-twin manufacturer was outselling them big time? Imitation is the greatest form of flattery. And the Ninjas came out a while after the Honda Hurricanes I believe and looking pretty similar too. I never said that Yamaha, Kawasaki or Suzuki didnt add something of their own to the market but I don't see much they did that was original in nature. They took others ideas and indeed may have even improved on it but they are copycats in basic model lines. How many years behind Honda did Yamaha produce it' first V-4.
What few 25 year old metrics I do see around here are just beat to crap stuff that someone drug out of the wood bin to beat the gas prices. They ride them to work and a little around town. Very few if any of these 25 year old bikes have over 10,000 miles on them but still look rough at best. One more question: why is it that I can go to the local and nearly any Kawasaki Yamaha and Suzuki dealer and purchase NEW bikes that are 1, 2, or even 3 model years old every year. I've never seen that at the Harley dealers and seldom at the Honda, but very occasionally at the BMW dealers. A whole lot of STUPID people buy'em up every year. By the way I did not say they were all unreliable. What I said was that they were throw aways. When crashed or broke we buy a new one. Very few ever get major repair or rebuild because of parts availability and cheaper to by the semi-annually new improved version. And go to ANY used bike salvage yard and make a list of what junk parted out bikes they have and the mileage (Any over 10,000?) on those pieced together used ones for sale there. If you find more Harleys and BMWs at the salvage yard than metrics and can prove it to me then I'll consider retraction of my "most stupid false statement ever".
I'm entitled to an opinion and you are as well. If you don't agree fine but try not to pee all over yourself about stupid statements.
geoffsimpson,
OK I slipped and said ALL. But here is a quote from an old Cruiser Magazine test "Suzuki invented 800cc cruiser V-twins in the early 1990s when it bumped its Intruder 750 to 805cc. And Suzuki has maintained a staunch commitment to this V-twin displacement category." June 2005 I looked at the pics of these bikes and they sure look like V-twins to me. Pipes look a lot like the Deuce or even the 1990 Fat Boy pipes. Kind of like Harleys with their low slung seats, the speedometer in the center front of the fuel tank. The pegs thrown out forward or better yet floorboards and chrome studs on the seats, the nice chrome cover over the intake between the cylinders. If those bikes didn't start life as Harley clones I don't know how else to describe them. And if the Vulcan Drifter doesn't look like an Indian Chief to you then you have obviously never seen one. I'll never argue that the metrics do it cheaper and pretty darned well. But they didn't throw it on the planning board without some pre-set ideas from something already out there.

[SNAFU]

I like Turtles!

[Kodatech]

Originally Posted by MoonRunner

BMW by the way has stepped up significantly. Look at their latest lineup. They have a sport version cranking over 150 horsepower. That's something the could care less about til recently. Harley built the V-rod mainly to try for appeal to the younger market and merged with buell for the sport market. They have to be careful how innovative they get with the old standby V-twin until more of us 50-75 year old die-hards trade our bikes for wheel chairs. We want old core looks and feel with hidden upgrades. We don't buy V-rods for the most part and guess what, we whom have worked for 40 years and our families are grown: WE HAVE THE CASH. So we are the market. I'm not saying I'm rich, I'm just saying I'm not raising a family or putting money away for college. I buy what I want as do millions of other folks like me now on our second or third career.

Another thing, 150 horsepower is nothing new. You may remember almost 10 years ago when Suzuki (you remember...the junkyard bike) unleashed that little gem called the Hayabusa with over 156 REAR WHEEL HORSEPOWER.

Or maybe you forgot about Kawasaki (you know the copycat drifter maker) who Released their Ninja ZX-12R. You know....the one that made 178 BHP sitting still....then at about 140MPH the ram air takes the BHP to 190.

Yeah....BMW isn't a day late and a doller short on this one.....They are a DECADE late and 40 HORSEPOWER short.

Buell. There is something to them. They innovate a bit now and then. Their ZTL braking system is......uh....innovative.

The rest of the paragraph in the quotes is just plain snobbish......things like "we have the cash".....and "we are the market"......yeah...H-D riders don't think they are above other people at all....

[Kodatech]

When did the japanese cut back on inline 4 production?...When Honda stopped making competitive sportbikes?

Yes, the metrics Make more V-twin cruisers now, but they dont make less inline-4 bikes.

I guess with all that money you have, you dont have to watch the stock market. But if you do care, H-D stock isnt, and has not been doing well since February.


P.S. Try to make your posts a bit more organized so its not one large oversized and annoying-to-read 1st grade paragraph.

[geoffsimpson]

Originally Posted by MoonRunner

geoffsimpson,
OK I slipped and said ALL. But here is a quote from an old Cruiser Magazine test "Suzuki invented 800cc cruiser V-twins in the early 1990s when it bumped its Intruder 750 to 805cc. And Suzuki has maintained a staunch commitment to this V-twin displacement category." June 2005 I looked at the pics of these bikes and they sure look like V-twins to me. Pipes look a lot like the Deuce or even the 1990 Fat Boy pipes. Kind of like Harleys with their low slung seats, the speedometer in the center front of the fuel tank. The pegs thrown out forward or better yet floorboards and chrome studs on the seats, the nice chrome cover over the intake between the cylinders. If those bikes didn't start life as Harley clones I don't know how else to describe them. And if the Vulcan Drifter doesn't look like an Indian Chief to you then you have obviously never seen one. I'll never argue that the metrics do it cheaper and pretty darned well. But they didn't throw it on the planning board without some pre-set ideas from something already out there.

So you just didn't take time to read what I posted, or what? Being that I'm only mildly retarded, at least to some of the educated Harley Owners Group, where did I make a statement about the Vulcan Drifter...it's a copy, it's a cover band, it's a Knock Off in its truest form, but I never said it wasn't. Oh, and if i break my Suzuki, you can bet your butt I'll be paying to fix it, you can't speak for the entire metric community any more than I can speak to the H.O.G.

Claiming the V-Twin in it's current form with motorcycles from Hondas to Ducatis...a knock off? I ask you...."WHO CARES?"

[Kodatech]

I still stand by my post that if you think a 20 year old H-D or BMW bike is as reliable as a 20 year old Japanese bike then you are truly mentally inept.

I'm done with this whole stupid thread.

[MoonRunner]

Ya know I have better things to do than argue with people like you KOTEX. And if you like I'll just say it. I'm an uneducated idiot that accidently became independently wealthy and bought two Harleys so NOW I'M BETTER THAN YOU! Wow I'm glad I got that off my chest.

"Last edited by Kodatech : Today at 08:40 PM" I see you had to clean yours up a bit so you could tell me how stupid I was.

[geoffsimpson]

Well that got heated....

Good air in................Bad air out..........ahhhhhhhhhhhh

I like turtles to

[vampyregirl]

hmmm this is off topic but didnt triumph build the first vtwin?
as for bmw why buy the k1200gs when for 5 or 6k less you can buy the kawasaki concours14 which can do everything the bmw can? suzukis sv650can do everything the bmw f800 can for half the price. unless you have money to burn i just dont see how anyone could justify spending the extra cash for bmw.
my favorite exotic is the aprilla rsv1000R. not that i will have one anytime soon. its to expensive for me right now and the fact that aprilla dosent sell many bikes here means theres not much aftermarket. id probably have to order parts from italy. the new buell 1125R which uses the same rotax engine as aprilla is pretty cool. ok enough of my rambling for now

[LCA_koolaid37]

I just love seeing that deep down inside, Harley owners are just like the rest of us: bickering, whiny %%%%%es.

[Bowtie18]

Wow. Now this board has dropped to the level of most others I go on.

Bashing everyone else's ride, with little to back any of it up.

I think a lot of ya just need to get out and ride.

You can tell it's cooling off, and all the posers need to vent!

Get out and ride...

really.

[Tab B.]

Wow, it is amazing how fast things get heated up. I've been riding for over thirty years. While that, and maybe 2 bucks, will get me a coffee somewhere, it has afforded me lots of time to just observe things. Folks, relax and enjoy your rides. The industry as a whole, has weathered lots of ups and downs, and the machines have all evolved. Sometimes in little bits, sometimes big jumps. Sometimes more so in market, image, and style areas, then, other times in the juicy technical stuff. Changes aren't permanent, but change is. I know this is a bit of a wussy post, but damn, all YOU have to do is go out and find the machine that floats your boat. Some of you lucky buggers can float a few boats. Try to remember, or realize, that regardless of what you ride, lots of other people ride something different than you, and probably are just as happy,,,, and they would be just as "right" in their opinions as you.
Don't mind me. I'm just a twit. Oh, and I'm still enjoying my 86 gixxer. I'm looking forward to when I can put "antique" plates on it. That ought to be good for a chuckle or two!

[palanon]

This is to absurd. " My bike is better than yours. "

Be Happy with all the choices out there. The market now is like a giant penny candy store for motorcycles.

Ride what you can, when you can and smile all the way.

[Wistrick]

If you ride a scooter or if you ride a decked out Harley, have a good time and enjoy yourself. Isn't that why we ride in the first place.?????