The MSF - looking out for us, or looking out for themselves?

[easypete]

I just listened to the recent V-Twin Journal podcast. This week's podcast had an interview with a journalist, Wendy Moon. It was an interesting interview...

She did an article about the MSF, or as she writes... the M$F. She did a comparison on motorcycle safety courses offered in the US, UK, and Canada and compared the knowledge/experience gained as well as the fatality/accident rates for those who take the classes offered in these countries.

Her conclusion is that the MSF in the US stinks comparitively. She believes this is due to the MSF itsself, and the way it's structured and it was founded.

Basically, there were too many motorcycle accidents in the 60s and 70s. The US government wanted to put all sorts of rules and regulations on motorcycling, but the industry banded together and the government let the industry fix things. The MIC, which runs the MSF (as I understand it) is operated by the motorcycle manufacturers, as well as the accessory companies. The MSF is run by just the manufacturers.

As Moon puts it, the MSF is in it for the money. States, like Oregon and Idaho, felt that MSF was inadequate. Oregon developed their own courses. Idaho is using (or will be using) Oregon's system. Colorado is thinking about changing as well, but the MSF is threatening law-suit.

I know that I've had friends take the MSF recently (never before riding), and I rode with them afterwards. I was scared for their safety and mine.

This just interested me....

Anyway... if you're interested... listen to the podcast at:

http://vtwinjournal.com/

Read the article that moon wrote at:

http://moonrider.journalspace.com/?cat=MSF

[Louis]

Cool, I was looking for an interesting podcast to listen to. Thanks Pete.

God, does the website suck!

[jackM50black]

As an Oregon rider, I took the 2.5 day course through Team Oregon (a non-profit), which does other things besides motorcycle training. TO has a number of experienced riders who are teaching in a no nonsense manner. I've got nothing to compare it to, but I will say that I had an excellent experience through Team Oregon. By the way they don't just pass everybody who shows up... some experienced riders who dropped their bikes did not pass. I was totally inexperienced but passed, I guess in part because I did not drop the bike on any of our maneuvers, and although I had problems with the test bike (a 125cc Suzuki), I was able to overcome them for the most part.

[Scott58]

If they were actually looking out for you it would be free.

[drgibson]

Texas regulates the price so that you can't get a good deal.

[SVZuki]

an MSF class at a community colege here is $20...an independent 3rd party riding test needed if you do not take the MSF, can run up to $50.

[easypete]

Originally Posted by drgibson

Texas regulates the price so that you can't get a good deal.

Here's the thing.... MSF doesn't actually run the courses (from what Moon says). They just sell the states the curriculum. So it's up to the state to determine the prices based on what it costs to put on the school.

[prekarious1]

hmm, did mine for free

[inspiron]

Comparing safety courses in the US with those in the UK or EU is foolish. The EU has different laws, different license requirements, and different problems.

In Germany and Switzerland, there are strictly enforced helmet and insurance laws. No insurance - no license plate.

The process to get a driver's license is much more difficult and expensive. I've had a car driver's license for more than 25 years, but it still cost me almost $1000 to add the MC license. You have to attend a first-aid refresher, have your eyes re-examined, attend 4 hours of theory and about 4 hours of group practice (first in a parking lot, then together with an instructor on the road). I then took a couple of private lessons (to get used to riding 2-up, since the inspector rides pillion). With fees for the permit, plus the various checkups, theory class, group lessons and private lessons, lots of $$$ were invested). As I've written before, passing the test is a 2-part challenge: First the manuver test, and if you pass that, you can make an appointment (about 2 weeks later) for the road test.

I take a safety/refresher course every year. It is sponsored by my insurance company, Allianz. I pay about $80 for the 1-day safety course, including water, coffee and lunch.

We have here different "problems" to be dealt with from many US bikers. Most of the safety training deals with basic skills (balance, working the clutch, riding circles and slalom, emergeny stops, etc.) and proper and safe riding in the twisties - how to go through turns without "losing your head" to an oncoming bus or car. We don't worry much about riding in heavy traffic - we don't have that much traffic here.

Just like there are different requirements for safety equipment (ECE 22-05 versus SNELL or DOT testing of helmets), biking in Europe can't be compared to biking in the USA.

[blackie1491]

The B.C. Safety Council course was the best money I ever spent.I took both the basic and the street course, awesome instuctors, good learning envoirement and it was fun.

[easypete]

Originally Posted by inspiron

Comparing safety courses in the US with those in the UK or EU is foolish. The EU has different laws, different license requirements, and different problems.

In Germany and Switzerland, there are strictly enforced helmet and insurance laws. No insurance - no license plate.

The process to get a driver's license is much more difficult and expensive. I've had a car driver's license for more than 25 years, but it still cost me almost $1000 to add the MC license. You have to attend a first-aid refresher, have your eyes re-examined, attend 4 hours of theory and about 4 hours of group practice (first in a parking lot, then together with an instructor on the road). I then took a couple of private lessons (to get used to riding 2-up, since the inspector rides pillion). With fees for the permit, plus the various checkups, theory class, group lessons and private lessons, lots of $$$ were invested). As I've written before, passing the test is a 2-part challenge: First the manuver test, and if you pass that, you can make an appointment (about 2 weeks later) for the road test.

I take a safety/refresher course every year. It is sponsored by my insurance company, Allianz. I pay about $80 for the 1-day safety course, including water, coffee and lunch.

We have here different "problems" to be dealt with from many US bikers. Most of the safety training deals with basic skills (balance, working the clutch, riding circles and slalom, emergeny stops, etc.) and proper and safe riding in the twisties - how to go through turns without "losing your head" to an oncoming bus or car. We don't worry much about riding in heavy traffic - we don't have that much traffic here.

Just like there are different requirements for safety equipment (ECE 22-05 versus SNELL or DOT testing of helmets), biking in Europe can't be compared to biking in the USA.

I think that just proves the point the Moon is trying to make. It's tough (and should be tough) to get a license just about everywhere except it isn't in the US.

If you take the MSF basic riding course in the US, you get your license (in most states). At the end of the MSF course, you never get out of the parking lot. You have no practical experience, and yet, you have a license.

Compared to what you said you went through, MSF BRC is pretty much a joke.

As for different requirements for the different countries.... it's still a bike... it still has 2 wheels. You still have to learn how to ride it in a bunch of conditions which aren't covered (or is glossed over) by the MSF course.

[tlwisner]

Originally Posted by inspiron

No insurance - no license plate.

I do have to produce my proof of insurance every year when I renew my registration in Kentucky, car and bike.

Wendy Moon has written an extensive series of articles about the MSF that have been appearin g in Motorcycle Consumer News. Since MCN doesn't sell advertising, it's just about the only place people can complain about the MSF, which is wholly owned by motorcycle manufacturers.

MSF training and testing is aimed at producing more motorcycle buyers. Failing poor riders means fewer bikes sold. My girlfriend passed the MSF, and she was a very scary rider in the big church parking lot before she decided to give it up. Passing the MSF pretty much certifies that you can stand up, and you have a pulse - not that you are ready to ride a motorcycle on the street. Heck, even I passed it....

I would argue that the MSF has a goal of fewer accidents and better riders, but their history of litigation against better training programs (Idaho STAR) shows that they want to be the only game in town and low standards suit their real goals just fine.

The MSF training is much better than nothing, but it could be so much better. When I went in as a "re-entry" rider - I spent about half the class learning things I already knew quite well. Duck walking a motorcycle, working the clutch, how to shift. I'll see how the ERC class goes on my own bike.

[IncubusIncarnate]

Mine was free, but then again they have an arrangement with the USAF. They get to use out parking lot, and we get trained for free.

[inspiron]

Originally Posted by tlwisner

I do have to produce my proof of insurance every year when I renew my registration in Kentucky, car and bike.

Now that isn't very efficient, is it?

It works differently here. I provide a proof of insurance when I register the bike the first time. My insurance policy is linked to the bike's registration. If I cancel my insurance, the company notifies the DMV who sends out the police to confiscate my plates (and charge me for their time and effort), if I don't return them to the DMV.

When I deposit my plates (for example, taking the bike out of service during the winter), the DMV notifies my insurance company, who will then refund part of my premiums (since the bike only needs to be covered for fire and theft, but not collision, as long as it's not registered). To re-register the bike, I have to provide proof-of-insurance again.

But as long as the bike remains registred, and I continue to pay my insurance premiums, the annual registration takes place by mail. They send a bill, and I pay it.

[blackie1491]

In the past in B.C., if you owned a motorcycle, you were able to insure it even though you did not pocess a valid class 6 endorsement on your lic.
This meant that we had a lot of unlicensed riders.

This is no longer allowed.

[tlwisner]

Originally Posted by inspiron

Now that isn't very efficient, is it?

I'm not exactly sure I understand your point. Every May, I send in my check, my insurance card, and my registration slip and I get a new sticker for my license plate. It seems pretty efficient to me. I keep my license plate year-round, but I ride year round too.

The thing that puzzles me is why motorcycle insurance is so expensive in Europe? Are there that many more thefts and wrecks or does all of that excess money go elsewhere?

[drgibson]

The two day course I attended here in Texas was very informative and taught some very good basic skills. For me it was a good refresher course, it was also a good introduction to riding for those who have never ridden.

However I feel that the course was designed to teach you what you need to know to pass the written motorcycle exam and to make sure you had the coordination to ride a motorcycle.
It lacked true substance and depth. There is not one of the riders I took the MSC that I would have gone riding with. All in my class were inexperienced, and over confident and barely passed the skills test. Most had their sights set on R rated bikes too.
If it was up to me I would say that there should be two levels to the course before you could get your license.
The second one would focus on riding skills, having drills like avoiding obstacles, evasive maneuvers, braking, handling traffic, and how to fall etc...

As a side note in Texas you are not even required to take the course, which is evident by the high volume of squids we have riding in this state.

[kyro2000]

For the confidence and knowlege that I gained I would have been happy to pay twice as much as I did from the MSF course that I took 3 years ago. Even if the funding or price is messed up a bit I still say it is well worth it IMO.

[Clint]

Good thread, Pete. Thanks.

[Kehau D.]

Mine was free also, courtesy of the U.S. Air Force and I took both the BRC and ERC. Personally, I don't think it was a waste at all, in fact, it was perfect for someone like me who had absolutely no riding experience whatsoever. I don't think I could have handled learning from anyone I know, especially my husband. After having read Proficient Motorcycling, it's clear that there is not a lot of enthusiasm for promotion of safety in motorcycling in the U.S. The last "official" study done on motorcycling was 40 years ago. Having the MSF lay out some sort of guideline is better than nothing at all.