The MSF - looking out for us, or looking out for themselves?

[POE-BOY SAMICH]

I've completed the MSF course in TX and am glad I took it. BUT, I would be the first to admit there is a LOT I still have to learn.

Do the entities that govern the MSF have ulterior/financial-gain motives? I'm sure they do. However, it would be unfair to expect ANY organization to put a curriculum together that encompassed nearly (much less all) a rider had to know.

Here's some food for thought...If the MSF curriculum were made better (I think we ALL agree there's room for improvement), that would also make the course harder to pass. In places like TX it is not REQUIRED that you pass the MSF to get licensed. If the course were harder to pass, even if it's in the best interest of the rider, far fewer people would bother to take the MSF training because the written/riding test through the DMV would be easier than the course. A tougher/better MSF curriculum would not necessarily result in better licensed riders on the road. Rather, the more logical result is just less people taking the MSF training.

Just my opinion --nothin more, nothin less.

[Firedog]

Originally Posted by POE-BOY SAMICH

In places like TX it is not REQUIRED that you pass the MSF to get licensed. If the course were harder to pass, even if it's in the best interest of the rider, far fewer people would bother to take the MSF training because the written/riding test through the DMV would be easier than the course. A tougher/better MSF curriculum would not necessarily result in better licensed riders on the road. Rather, the more logical result is just less people taking the MSF training.

Just my opinion --nothin more, nothin less.

It's not required in Iowa either. In fact, I was "lucky" enough to have to take the DMV driving test regardless of me passing the MSF course (Iowa works on a lottery system, where, if you were born on a certain date, you have to take the driving test - I had the choice of taking the test or waiting until the next quarter - I didn't want to wait that long!). I knew this ahead of time and still took the course. If it would have been harder, that would not have affected my decision. I took the course to be sure that motorcycles was something that I wanted to deal with. So, I'm going to have to kinda, disagree with you, there, Poe-boy - but just a little.

[tlwisner]

Originally Posted by POE-BOY SAMICH

A tougher/better MSF curriculum would not necessarily result in better licensed riders on the road. Rather, the more logical result is just less people taking the MSF training.

Perhaps a tougher/better training curriculum and a tougher DMV riding test? That sounds good to me. I had to drive a car in city traffic to get my auto license. I had to ride a few figure-eights and shift a couple times in a church parking lot to get my Motorcycle license. Why is it easier to get a license to drive the vehicle that takes more skill to drive?

[drgibson]

Originally Posted by tlwisner

Perhaps a tougher/better training curriculum and a tougher DMV riding test? That sounds good to me. I had to drive a car in city traffic to get my auto license. I had to ride a few figure-eights and shift a couple times in a church parking lot to get my Motorcycle license. Why is it easier to get a license to drive the vehicle that takes more skill to drive?

I agree in Texas if you take the MSF you do not have to take a driving test at all.

[easypete]

Originally Posted by drgibson

I agree in Texas if you take the MSF you do not have to take a driving test at all.

Most states are like this.

[stp1971]

I took a course that was private sponsored that was a basic riding skills course that taught me things like duck walking my bike for the first day. the second day they got into more advanced maneuvers like stopping in a straight line and turning the bike while riding.

No seriously,, any type of course is better than no course at all. The way Georgia has it set up is you take a test of forty questions. 20 questions are road rules and knowledge. The second twenty questions are road signs and their meaning. You pass that they give you a temporary learners permit. That permit allows you to get on any road in Georgia other than Interstates and toll roads. You can ride anytime during daylight hours. But no passengers.

So someone who is good at taking tests can go in there and get a license to ride by themselves without ever setting foot on a motorcycle. Then once they learn to ride that is when they give you the riding portion.

My idea is require all people to take a basic motorcycle course in a controlled enviroment. Once they become proficient enough to ride on a course and can handle a bike, then make them take the written test and make them do a simple road test to make sure they are not going out on the road and not even being able to handle a bike.

Once they become proficient then give them a final written test and another road course test.

Even though the course I paid for was a basic course,, I learned alot of little things you never really think about. It was still a good $300.00 investment.

[azoazc]

Originally Posted by tlwisner

Perhaps a tougher/better training curriculum and a tougher DMV riding test? That sounds good to me. I had to drive a car in city traffic to get my auto license. I had to ride a few figure-eights and shift a couple times in a church parking lot to get my Motorcycle license. Why is it easier to get a license to drive the vehicle that takes more skill to drive?

I think it's because lack of skill on one side is most likely to hurt just you, where lack of skill in a car or truck is likely to hurt everyone near you.

[stp1971]

True,, that is true. That is why it is all the more important to be the better driver when riding a bike. You can never have enough practice and you can never be too careful.

[blackie1491]

Here in BC, there is 3 stages to a class 6 endorsement, leaner, novice then
class 6.The class 6 portion require you to ride the streets followed by 2 people in a car to grade you.
If you do BC safety Council they have an authorzied examiner follow you on the street on their bike.
This course is divided into basic course and the street course, completion of both courses leads to class 6 endorsement. There are other companies doing motorcycle courses now and making it manditory would go a long way to increase the level of ability at an earlier stage.

[Uechi Kid]

I took the MSF course about fifteen years ago. I have been riding for about a year at that time and I got quite a bit out of the class. I think it should be required for everyone to get there license. Right now in California only those under 18 have to take it.
My wife is thinking about getting a bike and she’s going to take the class this spring and of course she wants me to take it with her. What the he**, it might be fun.

[POE-BOY SAMICH]

Originally Posted by Firedog

I took the course to be sure that motorcycles was something that I wanted to deal with. So, I'm going to have to kinda, disagree with you, there, Poe-boy - but just a little.

Good for you Firedog. Yours is a good reason to take the MSF. Me, I took the course because I considered it my first step toward being the best motorcyclist that I can be, but I see your point. However, I do not know that the majority of riders would continue to take the course if it were noticeably harder than the DMV tests. Maybe I'm just a cynic.

tlwisner, I'm with you. I think an effort on both the DMV and the MSF is needed to improve the curriculum overall.

I find it interesting that we were well into the thread before we acknowledged the fact that the DMV in many locations does NOT make it too hard to get a motorcycle license. If we are critical of the MSF, maybe we should cast the same eye towards those running our local DMV's.

[inspiron]

Originally Posted by tlwisner

I'm not exactly sure I understand your point. Every May, I send in my check, my insurance card, and my registration slip and I get a new sticker for my license plate. It seems pretty efficient to me. I keep my license plate year-round, but I ride year round too.

Because you have to organize an insurance card before you can apply for renewal. That's why I thought it was inefficient - you have more work, when it *could* be handled automatically if the insurance company would just notify the DMV whenever your insurance status changed. The difference is "management by exception" versus "regularly scheduled updates (once per year)". With the system in the US, you could purchase insurance, get your tags, and cancel the insurance the next day. With the Swiss system, this isn't possible, because I'm not in the loop - the notification takes place directly between the DMV and my insurance company.

Originally Posted by tlwisner

The thing that puzzles me is why motorcycle insurance is so expensive in Europe? Are there that many more thefts and wrecks or does all of that excess money go elsewhere?

There are various reasons, some of which have to do with government regulations (minimum cash reserves for insurance companies required by law), some have to do with the high cost of living (a typical shop charges about CHF 95 = US$75 per hour for labor), the high cost of parts (customs charges, shipping costs, etc.), and so on.

In some parts of Europe, there are higher risk of theft (parts of Spain, France, Germany, etc.) as bikes and cars get stolen and stripped down by organized crime or are trucked to eastern Europe and Russia where they are sold with forged papers.

My insurance (41yo, male, clean driving record) is only $210 per year for the basic liability (up to 100 million CHF coverage, $400 deductable). The full-coverage comprehensive costs me $564 per year, including 3rd party, fire, theft and replacement of my protective gear in case of an accident, with an $800 deductable.

I don't think that is very expensive for a bike that is 3 years old and would cost more than $11,000 to replace.