Beginner Training, H-D vs. MSF BRC

[tlwisner]

For the benefit of people looking for beginner training:

The Harley sponsored classes have double the injury and crash rates of the other MSF classes according to MSF documents researched by Mortorcycle Consumer News. The Buell Blast motorcycles they use have horrible clutches and also run poorly at low speeds. The H-D classes also tend to be taught in dealership parking lots with a smaller range than the standard MSF range. The H-D classes cost more and also include lots of sales oriented stuff (they make you pay to be sold H-D gear).

Given a choice, choose the MSF class over the H-D class. Putting new riders on Buell Blasts is just not good, they're not friendly bikes.

(I posted this as a response to another thread, but I think it probably merits a new thread)

[Lancer]

Tim,

I can tell you this--those Buell Blasts are the most miserable pieces of **** I have ever seen. I've ridden 49cc scooters that are better balanced and easier to ride. And you're absolutely right that the clutches are horrible. They handle terribly at slow speeds--they even chug in first gear.

The best thing about any of this is that I never have to get on one of those things again.

[Nexus242]

Humm well I took my MSF at Orlando HD for $276 which wasn't the most expensive in town but had the better times and dates available for me and my work schedule. My coaches were ALL MSF certified coaches and one was even a FHP moto cop and none of them had less then 10-15 years experience on bikes. The bikes we had were Blasts and Honda Rebels and yes it was in their parking lot. However the size of the lot had no effect on the skills that we learned and one could say it was even a better learning environment since you have to react quicker, control your speed better and use your brakes more effectively.

At no point was there any sales presentation of HD items or gear to the class. As to the cost of the HD class being more well in my class they also gave you a certificate for a full 24 HD rental during the next year during off peak rental times. I'd have to figure that to be worth at least $60-$90 a day. Donna, my main coach, even went onto say I could rent one bike for 4 hours bring it back take out another bike for a few hours and so on for the full 24 hours.

So I'll go against the grain and say my experience, since I took it there was postive, great and gave me the skills to ride a motorcycle. And I'd recommend anyone to sign up for MSF at Orlando HD anytime.

[tlwisner]

Nexus, you must have had the normal MSF class. The H-D Riders Edge class is the class offered with H-D logo'd books, only Buell Blasts, and the mandatory dealership tour. The H-D Rider's Edge class is based on the MSF BRC class, but H-D used their financial muscle with the MSF to force acceptance of the Blast as a training bike - when the previous rules excluded bikes over 250 cc.

[Scribbles]

Actually, I asked about that this evening, and it was confirmed that there are some dealerships which host MSF classes, but those classes are not Rider's Edge classes. If another motorcycle was included as a class cycle, then it was not a Harley Davidson sanctioned class.

[Nexus242]

Originally Posted by tlwisner

Nexus, you must have had the normal MSF class. The H-D Riders Edge class is the class offered with H-D logo'd books, only Buell Blasts, and the mandatory dealership tour. The H-D Rider's Edge class is based on the MSF BRC class, but H-D used their financial muscle with the MSF to force acceptance of the Blast as a training bike - when the previous rules excluded bikes over 250 cc.

NOPE wrong again I took their Edge class with the HD logo MSF book (wish I still had it) and the most promotional thing we saw was a video tape at the beginning of the classroom day which showed all sorts of people riding HDs wearing HD appearal and well since they made the tape and are in business to make money then I didn't expect to see a Valkarie or Victory in the back ground.

NO there wasn't a tour of the dealership at anytime, infact after the dealership closed (when the class started) we were restricted to the areas we could walk thru (simple theft prevention issue) to the bike showroom floor, class room and bathrooms (all of which were at the front of the building)

And if your main problem is with the Blast being 492cc, don't, the Honda Rebel I was on was faster then the Blasts were. Sure the thumper sucked *** but it's a training bike and nothing more. Even If I wanted to buy a Buell the Orlando HD dealer wasn't even a Buell dealer.

==> http://www.orlandoharley.com/rider/faq.html

Maybe you should be more concered with the individual instructors and their abilities then the whole program itself. Everyone %%%%%s that everyone should take MSF well this is an MSF class with a minor sales presentation on crappy blasts BFD.

[tlwisner]

Originally Posted by Nexus242

And if your main problem is with the Blast being 492cc, don't, the Honda Rebel I was on was faster then the Blasts were. Sure the thumper sucked *** but it's a training bike and nothing more. Even If I wanted to buy a Buell the Orlando HD dealer wasn't even a Buell dealer.

I don't really have a problem, I'm just pointing out that the Rider's Edge program has a pretty bad track record according to it's own records - and it's due to students wrecking bikes and being injured at double the rate of the state run MSF classes. I'm happy for you that you enyoyed your class - and that's the first I ever heard of an H-D dealer using Hondas for training. I guess they want a higher survival rate.

If your class used Honda bikes and did no dealership sales tour, then your class didn't follow the H-D training program. Lucky you.

The Blasts are crappy bikes to start with, and even worse for beginners since they have a hellish clutch pull and they stall easily at low speeds.

Buy a Buell, some of their bikes are quite nice.

[Nexus242]

Originally Posted by tlwisner

I don't really have a problem, I'm just pointing out that the Rider's Edge program has a pretty bad track record according to it's own records - and it's due to students wrecking bikes and being injured at double the rate of the state run MSF classes.

So too me that would mean that the riders are at fault and not the system. I'd say 80% of HD Edge MSF class takers will end up owning an HD and even the smallest HD sportster is over the 500cc limit most of you say is the best beginner bike. So they take the class and buy a softtail or a road king and wreck it a few months later on. Now you want to blame the class for this??? No blame the riders for over thinking their skill level and buying too much bike.

Originally Posted by tlwisner

and that's the first I ever heard of an H-D dealer using Hondas for training. I guess they want a higher survival rate.

And honestly I can't seem to understand why you think the bike you train on has anything to do with the bike you will ride post class or how it will effect your ability to learn and controll a different bike. That's like saying taking drivers Ed in a Dodge K car is going to cause more drivers to wreck if they own a Toyota Corolla post driver Ed cause the K car is such a piece of crap they won't be able to adapt???


I wish I could find the thread that warrented this one or the facts you claim support your argument. What are these rates you talk about?? Double the rates so what is that 4 out of 100 instead of 2 out of 100?? If your going to make such sweeping statments back them up with the fact or link right there other wise your speaking hearsay and personal opinions.

[jkulysses]

There really is no point in arguing this topic. You had a good experiance and he had a bad one. Just leave it at that.

[Nexus242]

Originally Posted by jkulysses

There really is no point in arguing this topic. You had a good experiance and he had a bad one. Just leave it at that.

No I had an experience with Harley Davidson's Edge class and he didn't. Big difference and I would glad to continue the debate that I didn't take the Edge class cause I road on a Honda Rebel or that I my skill set is some what less because I learned on a Buell Blast. That's the heart of the argument.

So keep posting up false statements and assumptions based on somethin you've read and I'll keep blasting holes in them based on what I actually did.

[jkulysses]

I think you have a complex cause nobody ever said that your "skill set is somewhat less because you learned on a Buell Blast". So you took the edge class and had a good experiance, we get the point. I think you just like to argue is the problem here.

[Nexus242]

Originally Posted by jkulysses

I think you have a complex cause nobody ever said that your "skill set is somewhat less because you learned on a Buell Blast".

You missed the part where tlwisner stated "The Harley sponsored classes have double the injury and crash rates of the other MSF classes according to MSF documents researched by Mortorcycle Consumer News"

Originally Posted by jkulysses

So you took the edge class and had a good experiance, we get the point. I think you just like to argue is the problem here.

Sure what's wrong with having an argument to correct statements that are opinion but stated as facts. Maybe it would be easier to see a statement like "GSXR are great beginner bikes, I've done research" to argue about but this is a little less clear. So I'm doing my part to correct that.

[Trapper]

I read it to mean that the crashes and injuries occured DURING the course.

[jkulysses]

Originally Posted by trappercase

I read it to mean that the crashes and injuries occured DURING the course.

Thats how I took it also.

[Ranger_b0b]

Me three

[Scribbles]

I also took it to mean that the crashes occurred during the classes.

In our class, which included several people who have ridden for some time, there were more than ten crashes or dropped bikes. One of the crashes was by a person with a couple of years of experience riding. His bike cut out on him, because the throttle kept sticking. That is just that particular motorcycle, and you will need to get used to it for this class.

If you had a good experience, congrats. However, sweeping generalizations about ALL classes, ALL riders, and ALL crashes should not be made.

Susan

[Clint]

K-cars. Heehee!

[tlwisner]

Originally Posted by jkulysses

Thats how I took it also.

That's what the statistics were. The instructors have to fill out paperwork when a bike goes down and a rider is injured, even if the injury is minor. They don't track the individual students after taking the class. I'm just reporting some facts from MCN's series of articles about MSF training - not my opinions.

I'm sorry that Nexus has his panties in a wad, it doesn't change the reported accident rates.

[Nexus242]

Originally Posted by tlwisner

I'm sorry that Nexus has his panties in a wad, it doesn't change the reported accident rates.

Well help me unwad them by POSTING the stats, provide a link to the rates, snap a digicam pic of it and post it. Do more then just talk about somethine none of us can read or see ourselves.

It's like trying to pull a toy from a dog to get some concrete facts in this thread???

[BigD]

-1

Give it a rest or look it up for yourself. It seems everyone else is OK with the information that tlwisner is sharing with us and there is no reason to doubt what he says is true. He gave you his source, if you have an issue then check it out for yourself. It's that simple.