Global Cooling?

[Thundurburd]

Ummmm. I just thought I'd point out that there aren't any Brontosaurus around anymore.

[B-Rex]

Originally Posted by themeatmanlandry

The way I see it, we're living on a planet that's a million years old, and we've got good data on the 2 or 3 hundred years or so. The rest is educated guesses based on what we *think* is true scientifically.

First off, please don't think I'm trying to "convince" you of anything. There really is no need. When I convey information here I try to make it very clear when I'm proffering an opinion or when I'm putting forth a known fact. But I realize you don't know me and don't know what my fact sources are. So I don't expect instant belief just because "I" said it. The best that I can hope for is that someone will find some of the data I provide useful in their thought processes or actions.

I put absolutely NO stock in people's "opinions" about science. It is either an established scientific fact, law or principle, a scientific theory with supportive evidence or it is an hypothesis. And anyone in the sciences will tell you that scientific laws and principles can, do and should evolve as more information is known. However, IMHO, ALL scientific facts, laws and principles mean waaaaay more than someone's opinion. In other words, it is the BEST data we have.

It is a scientific FACT that we can examine weather patterns through various ice coring, carbon-dating, fossil evidence and geological artifacts. Granted, some of the data are approximations....but many of the data are reproducible facts.

Think about which works best: opinion, religion or science? Which of the three delivers principles, laws and data which actually WORK? Did opinion or religion make your ECU function? Did it make your computer? Did it put man into space? Where did your IPod, your microwave and your LCD TV come from?

SCIENCE WORKS! And it's the best tool we have to understand and manipulate the world around us. In the REAL world, compared to established and proven scientific "facts", opinion and religion are

That doesn’t mean that I think opinion and religion have no place in the world. It just means, IMHO, they are not even close to sufficient in order to understand the world and make things work.

But truly, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I just try and pass on what I know to the best of my ability. Once in a while someone might find it useful or it will cause them to think and do some research on their own. I'm happy with that. Lots of people live their lives and make decisions based on what they feel or believe. It's the rule...not the exception. I realize I'm in a tiny minority.

Oh yeah, I also "learn" here too!

(second trip to soapbox completed )

B-Rex

[Clint]

Originally Posted by themeatmanlandry

I stand by my old standard when it comes to global warming: It takes a pretty pompuos creature to think that it has the power to influence mother nature on a grand scale. If the Earth wants to get warmer, it will. Can't cause it, can't stop it.

I've heard you say that a number of times, and I just don't get it. We clearly affect our environment in a number of ways. Why should this be different? A century ago, no one believed that we could pollute the air enough to make a difference. It was too large, they said. Nor could aircraft ever collide. It was too much space, they said. Clearly, those opinions have gone by the wayside.

I say it's thickheaded to deny outright that we couldn't. Which would you rather be, thickheaded or pompous?

[frostbitevinnie]

I have read articles discussing the "science" from both camps. Seems to me it has been boiled down to nothing more than a climate religion. The western world has been pressured to conserve, be green, etc. But the developing nations, India, China apparently don't give a rats ass about the environment, fuel consumption and clean energy. So our conservation is null and void due to developing countries excess.

[frostbitevinnie]

Are you two going to start pulling hair?

[amvince]

Vinnie are you trying to draw me out to post a picture? By the way I didn't think it would get this serious.

Now heres a question to ponder, What do you do when Science proves Religion or Religion proves Science.

[B-Rex]

Originally Posted by frostbitevinnie

I have read articles discussing the "science" from both camps. Seems to me it has been boiled down to nothing more than a climate religion. The western world has been pressured to conserve, be green, etc. But the developing nations, India, China apparently don't give a rats ass about the environment, fuel consumption and clean energy. So our conservation is null and void due to developing countries excess.

Vinnie, the fact that the polar ice is melting, and the sea level is rising is no longer argued amongst ANY legit scientists. Legit from both "camps". What is still being argued is whether or not man is causing it. That is a much tougher question to answer.

IMHO (notice the "opinion") I think man is having some effect. But, I don't know how much. However, thinking that it is probable, in my mind, that man is affecting the environment, is enough for me to work towards minimizing as much of that effect as I can. If I'm wrong....well we have a cleaner environment and a replacement for fossil fuel and it won't much affect global warming. If I'm right, then I have done something to improve the global warming issue, reduced pollution AND worked on a replacement for fossil fuel. For me, it's a win-win situation.

But no legit scientist will deny that the ice is melting and the sea level is rising. It has been proven by on-site measurement, satellite imaging and the disppearance of coastal land "edges" all over the world.

You are definitely correct that China and some other countries are doing very little to prevent what they can. However, china is already being punished for its attitude and lack of action. The one thing that is certain about man's role is local air pollution. Right now China has what is said to be the most polluted air in its cities, in the world. Whether or not that affects the rest of the world, they are certainly being punished for it. They have rapidly accelerating rates of cancer, COPD and other air pollution related diseases. They will learn, like the rest of the civilized world did that they will pay locally for their attitudes and actions.

In the end, global warming or not, we must learn to pollute less and utilize more renewable energy. That's the bottom line!

B-Rex

[frostbitevinnie]

I am fully aware of the melting ice caps. See it or hear about it just about every damn day. No argument from me. As far as the climate religion, I was referring to the zeal that each camp has in "proving" the opposing camp is going to climate hell.

I try and do my part to conserve. I have a fuel efficient car, magic light bulbs and I burn dead fall and scrap from the local cabinet shop to heat my home. I know this has emissions but I live in MN and I need HEAT!! It really drives me crazy to see folks driving an Escalade or other large vehicle for no apparent reason than just to be bigger. I have a truck and I use it infrequently for the purpose it was intended, to haul large loads.

I'm all for renewable energy, I invest in renewable energy. Solar, wind farms, etc... I believe our future depends on it and I/we need to manage our resources responsibly for our kids.

Nuff said!

[Low&Slow]

Personally, I get a little tired of the global warming zealots that consider anyone who questions any aspect of their argument a knuckle dragger. It's like if you don't believe them with all your heart you must be an idiot. Every year for Earth Day I like to burn a tire and pop open a can of freon.

[SNAFU]

B-Rex.

[B-Rex]

Originally Posted by frostbitevinnie

I am fully aware of the melting ice caps. See it or hear about it just about every damn day. No argument from me. As far as the climate religion, I was referring to the zeal that each camp has in "proving" the opposing camp is going to climate hell.

Oops, sorry..... I must have misinterpreted what you wrote. I couldn't agree with you more. It's the extremists on both sides that often talk people in the middle out of taking reasonable measures.

B-Rex

[amvince]

Once again I agree with you all.It makes life so much easier to agree with everybody.

[frostbitevinnie]

I concur.

[Clint]

I disagree.

With everyone.

[amvince]

Tell us something we don't already know.

[omegajim]

I see a few things happening

1) a continued high price of oil, OPEC said so themselves; target price $95 / barrel. This makes alternate forms of energy cheaper by comparison
2) We (the US) decided in it's infinite wisdom to make ethanol. Small gain in energy, big huge waste in everything else, including potable water to make the ethanol.
3) Currently, we toss a lot of stuff that could turn into ethanol/methanol away or other unused resources (different kinds of weeds) are readily available and just sitting there.
4) the smartest thing my gov't has done was hand out a 3 k rebate on hybrids, but only on so many. Otherwise the number of Honda and Toyota hybrids would be, quite literally all over the place (or at the minimum, a lot more common).
5) Lastly, the gov't increased the epa std fuel economy. So now people can't buy the cars they want and the car companies can't build the cars people want. This kind of started the whole mess we're in the first place, but that's a whole 'nother post.

In conclusion, you want something, give people (or companies) incentives to do something. My company finally converted to flourescent lighting because the state (and I think the federal gov't) gave my company financial incentive to do so.

My father's neighbor did likewise back in the day. This neighbor put up a solar powered water heater (still in place, nearly 30 years later) because he got an incentive from the gov't to do so.

[frostbitevinnie]

Originally Posted by RowdyRed94

I disagree.

With everyone.

Quite surprised by that!

[Barbarian]

I know enough about meteorology and climatology to know what is referenced in the OP isn't worth looking at. When people talk global warming, they're talking about trends. Looking at one year and saying "2007 was colder than 2006" is like going outside at 7 p.m and saying "it's colder than it was an hour ago."

When you get down to brass tacks, the past 20 years are some of the warmest in recorded history. That's worrisome.

[Low&Slow]

Today I lit several bonfires and threw cans of paint into them, tomorrow I'm going to ride around in my SUV with the windows down and the heater on. Soon you will all be riding jet skis.

[B-Rex]

Originally Posted by Barbarian

I know enough about meteorology and climatology to know what is referenced in the OP isn't worth looking at. When people talk global warming, they're talking about trends. Looking at one year and saying "2007 was colder than 2006" is like going outside at 7 p.m and saying "it's colder than it was an hour ago."

When you get down to brass tacks, the past 20 years are some of the warmest in recorded history. That's worrisome.

I agree with you.

However, just like the last several decades established global warming as a fact, it's always possible that the trend can reverse. That's the problem with retrospective data and trending. If you read any of the predictions associated with global warming, you see projections based on "if the trend continues" extrapolation.

I think that's a very good illustration that establishes your point. We can't look at one year, two years or even five to take the position that global warming is over and that "global cooling" has begun. The best we can do is plan for the worst and do our best to preserve what we have.

I remember about 25 years ago the big fear was global cooling and the coming of a new ice age because of things like "nuclear winter", the fear of increasing volcanic activity driving ash into the atmosphere blocking the sun and the possibility that we'd get hit by an asteroid that would do the same sun-blocking with dust. It helped drive lots of Hollywood movie plots.

Truthfully though....no one KNOWS what tomorrow will bring. We need to study, make our best approximations and do as little as possible to make things worse...either way!

The hard part is keeping the hysterics (and histrionics) out of climatology and convincing the average Joe to be more careful with energy, pollutants and to support renewable and sustainable technologies. No matter what our climate does, we will need energy, a clean environment and non-fossil fuel sources of energy.

That's the bottom line for all of us.

B-Rex