Accident Avoidance Advice WITH poll...

[tallannie]

..eye opening thread. I would probably have ascribed to the stereotype that it was mostly young "R" riders getting killed. I tried about 10 random entries on the OSP website fatalities and not one was under 22...most were much older. I winced to read about some of the dumb moves.

Then, to be honest, I thought about my own riding style... could I end up against a cow coming around some corner? Uh...well...maybe...and I have already slid off the road with the shiney side down with no animal help needed. Most of those accident descriptions (except "alcohol involved" which I never do) could be me.

Then finally I think about my slower reaction time and poorer eyesight and my age...and I know that I am not gonna handle it as well as i might have 35 years ago...

I think I am gonna slow down even more.

[inspiron]

There was a comment that stricter license requirements may reduce motorcycle accidents. I don't think so.

Switzerland has a very demanding license test - I've written about this before. In the canton where I live, the test is a 2-parter: First you have to take a certain number of driver's education classes, pass the maneuver test, then you are allowed to apply for the 20 to 30 minute road test where the inspector rides as a passenger on your bike.

On top of that, there is the restricted license - if you are under 25, you are limited to a 34 hp bike for the first 2 years.

And, all of the countries around here have enforced helmet laws.

Does this prevent motorcycle accidents? Not really. There are still accident deaths almost every weekend during the season due to excessive speed or bikers overestimating their own skills. Or the inattentive cager who takes out a biker who wasn't doing anything wrong.

The required education and licensing does lead to a lower number of DWI bikers, though. In the many group rides I've taken (with anywhere from 2 to 25 bikes), I've rarely seen anyone drink even one beer. None of my friends would even think of risking damage to their bike by drinking and riding.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

And a big part of my issue is: Perception AND reality. I did the quick scut work on the OSP release page for 2007. Here are the names and ages of the poor folks who OSP announced to the media were killed on motorcycles--in other words the ones that potentially got reported to EVERY paper, radio station and TV station in Oregon:

NELS JAMES CARLSON, age 57,
LEIGH SPURLOCK, age 53
CAROLYN CAYLOR, age 51,
JOHN MURRAY BROOKS, age 53,
WILLIAM DOTY, age 54
DELMAR LAWRENCE JEPSON, age 75
ARTHUR LEE DORNATH JR., age 48
VANCE MORGAN DUNN, age 40
FREDERICK JOHN SUNDERLIN, age 57
JEFFREY A. HYMAN, age 44

RIP. Each one leaves family members and friends that can become part of the bitter chorus against motorcycles. Yet here we sit, complaining about R bikes and kids when the problem is north of that, in the 40s and 50s.

Excuse me while I get on my soapbox: When a 20 year old kid gets on a forum full of experienced bikers and says: "I just bought a new GSXR1000, fo' schizzle I'm gonna have fun! How do I keep from getting killed?" And all the 'experienced bikers' can come up with is: 'Sell it before you die stupid'. What happens? He goes to stunta.com Looks for a little love? Finds 'fo schizzle' that a thumb break makes wheelies mo' better and gets a twelve o'clock bar so he can pull some no foota' action?

He's certainly not going to say--OH I AM STUPID! He's not gonna sell it. He's not gonna sell it. He might be convinced to run it with the injection mapping on KITTEN instead of OMFG! He might be convinced to take an MSF course. He might take friendly advice to resist lane splitting for a while. But if we just drive him off he watches the News, sees all the fuddy duddy 50 year olds are the ones dying and then thinks "hmmm, nobody at www.stunta is dying...they must be the truly skilled." And he rips the sleeves off his tee-shirt.

Aren't we better off--all motorcyclists better off--if we start a dialogue and give some reasonable, useful help to young riders? Even telling them the wicked truth? To come full circle again: Yes, acceleration can get you out of a jam but it's a tool of last recourse 'cause more often than not it can make things worse--fo' schizzle.

Quick Edit: Oregon is a mandatory helmet state.

[Thundurburd]

I bought my motorcycle last summer after not riding for over 30 years. Before I left the shop I called and ordered insurance. I was concerned that I was going to be in a high risk group and pay high insurance premiums because of my age.

Relevant statistics: (at time of purchase)
Age: 59
Motorcycle temps: no
Motorcycle license: no
MSF training: no
Bike: S50 800cc (much bigger than I had ever ridden before)

Annual insurance cost: $117 (I think. Can't check my files today)

For what it's worth it doesn't look like the insurance company expects me to be a high risk.

[Uncle Bob]

Capt, how do we keep ending up on the same side of the fence with so much distance between us ?

My main source of reference is the NHTSA site, national statistics average out states, so you found one state where there seems to be lower mortality in the lower age groups that just means that in another state youngsters are dying at a much faster rate.

Maybe it has to do with geography and financial ability. When a young person with limited funds can afford either a basic econocage or a "R" those in year round riding states may choose the bike whereas those who also want to get around in colder weather may opt for the car.

Now I for one have never told anybody who IMO bought too much bike to sell it, I may point out that it was not a good choice and the reasons why. This should at least point out the major quirks of the bike and the respect one should afford it. I very well know that for financial reasons it is impossible to convince somebody to sell their new bike.

They can also get a fair amount of advice and help from the members here.Doesn't mean we have to be hypocritical and congratulate somebody for choosing the bike he did when we honestly don't believe he made a good choice. If we can keep others from making the same mistake then we've done part of the job.

Your view, must also be applauded, "they're young and need help and guidance and I'm here for them". I agree, yet have to wonder that since many of them haven't listened to our advice on the choice of bike if they're going to listen to any other advice we have to offer.

The big picture I take into consideration is the fact that thousands of people visit this site everyday, they don't register, they don't post but they do read. If we start accepting that a newbie buying a "R" bike isn't a big deal then we encourage more people to do the same and that's not our aim.

[inspiron]

I agree with Bob. Many young people come here looking for us to applaud their foolish decision to start out on a liter-"R" bike, and disappear (or worse, get offended and abusive) when we try to tell them that they have made a bad choice and need to take it very, very carefully.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Capt, how do we keep ending up on the same side of the fence with so much distance between us ?

Honestly? I believe it's for 2 reasons:

1. I vividly remember being young AND stupid on a bike and having older riders who served as mentors and rolemodels. Fortunately for me YOUTUBE wasn't around to influence my young still forming brain.

2. After 16 years in local TV I started teaching High School. I'm around kids every darn day. Thier brains are not physically capable of the kind of reasoning we are. They can't extrapolate, or see consequences--especially long term. The brain isn't fully developed until you're about 24-26. (And for some of us--never myself included).

If this forum is about teaching then I would suggest that you think back to the best teacher you ever had--school, church, work, wherever you found them and ask yourself:

Am I that person? Am I the person that I would listen to?

A founding principle of teaching is: They don't care what you know until they know you care.

That's where I reach for inspiration.

Don't intend to say ya'll don't care about the younger set! Just I look at them as lovable dumb puppies that will pee on your foot and am not surprised when they do!

[Uncle Bob]

If I (we ) didn't care why would we waste so much time trying to get our message across ? One life lost to biking is too much but it's unfortunately part of the game that some will die, people die all the time, the Oregan state site also reports deaths from bicycling accidents and many pedestrian deaths.

If you want that puppy to stop peeing on your shoes though you can't just shrug it off as being normal behavior, you have to take action to show it, it did wrong. A good stern NO should suffice.

Being friends and caring about kids is nice but is it always what they really need ? I run a good size grocery store and have about thirty 16-18yr old employees, I treat them the same as any 20,30,40+yr old. They get the same training and are expected to follow the same rules as any other employe. My observation is that when treated as equals they act as equals.

A lot of young adults are capable of assuming a lot of responsability when given the proper training and boundaries. Military personel, police officers, firefighters, nurses, EMT's for example. How is it that the local police academy can take a 18yr old and turn him/her into a gun carrying law officer in a few months to do a very difficult job and yet we should continue to coddle them ?

As far as thinking back to the best teacher I ever had, in my case it's not the teacher who cared the most about me but the one who cared most about what he was teaching.

So again, same side, miles apart..................

That's ok though, there's more than one way to do most things, end result is what we're after. Some will respond better to one approach and others will need another approach.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Cool. Also I posted the latest NHSTA numbers I could find over in 'Tips'. If you have more recent numbers link 'em in would ya?

[omegajim]

On top of that, there is the restricted license - if you are under 25, you are limited to a 34 hp bike for the first 2 years.

I agree with the Swiss. wow. Gotta be a first.

[Stratoliner Blue]

Used it to get out of truuble once, saved my a$$ by inches...

[intimid8er]

Sheesh...haven't even settled at the desk, nor had a cup of coffee, and I gotta clean up porn spam!

[Davecm203]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Give me a break ! nobody buys a "R" to follow the rules of the road and trying to BS people including themselves into thinking they bought it for safety reasons is an oxymoron.

It is not fair to make a blanket statement. I like to ride the "R" bikes. I also drive a nice sports car. I like things that are light and agile. I am 39 years old and have been ridding streetbikes for a long time. I generaly follow the rules of the road and am as safe a rider as I can be. Unfortunantly, there are a lot of people out there who buy a sportbike and try to imitate Valenteno Rossi or Jason Britton on the street. There is a time and place for everything and a public road is usualy not it. That is the reason Deal's Gap is so heavily enforced and the speed limit has been so reduced. Just go to U-Tube and search "tail of the dragon" and take a look at all the squids with the irresistable impulse to video their trip down 8 miles of a public road. Anyway, just because there are idiots like that, don't throw all of into the same catigory.

As far as speed getting you out of trouble, it rarely does in my experiance. If someone is merging into you, you can quicker get out of the way by braking. One time I can think of acceleration saving me was when a car (a sherrif's deputy no less) pulled in front of me. I had the right of way, but I always slow and cover the brake and clutch when I come to an intersection that has a car approaching or stopped. About the time I was into the intersection, he pulled out. My only option was to swerve to the left and accelerate to get out of the way. I swerved to the center line and gave it the gas. He missed my right leg by inches. I looked in my mirror and he just sat there in the intersection, stopped, for a few seconds.

The best thing to do is to watch other vehicles, don't ride next to vehicles on a multi-lane road, and pay attention.

[Davecm203]

Originally Posted by intimid8er

Sheesh...haven't even settled at the desk, nor had a cup of coffee, and I gotta clean up porn spam!

^You have another to clean up.

[02Bandito1200S]

At the risk of nudging the thread back to wards the original topic -

How about some posts where accelerating got you out of trouble. Keep in mind that slightly speeding up to clear a blind spot quicker is not what I think was intended by the OP.

I sat and thought about it for a while. I cannot think of one time where "accelerating" got me out of trouble. However, I can think of a bunch of times where it got me real close to being introuble.

As to the new riders and sport bikes. I agree that it is not a wise decision, but I cannot stop them so I try to encourage training and try to set an example when riding with them. That includes obeying speed limits and such. One such newbie I have ridden with is 37yr old newbie with a HD Nightster as a first bike. One of the first questions he asked me is if he thought it would beat my Bandit in the 1/4mile. I told him it depended. On a drag strip -NO! On the street - yes and he would have to wait for at as I will not race on public roads. To further this also do my best to not ride above the level of him or his bike. I am fairly sure the Nightster is a bit slower handling than the Bandito. Hell, it took his boss and I 2 weeks to talk him out of taking the bike on a 1800 mile round trip to a conference. This was with all of 3 months of spuratic riding and never having gone more than 70-80 miles at one shot before.

[GeorgiaRoller]

Acceleration was good for me just yesterday. I was on a country road going 55-60mph coming around a sweeping curve when I noticed out of the corner of my eye that a dog was running straight for my front tire. There were two cars coming from the other direction so swerving was not an option. I really thought he was going to run right in front of me. Fortunately I came out of the apex of the curve and and accelerated hard and it through off the dogs timing and I just barely rode past it. If I would have slowed down any at all or applied the brakes I would have hit it for sure.

So yes, accelerating can in certain circumstances be helpful to avoid an accident. Swerving is good, but not in corners. Braking isn't always the answer either depending on the situation or the slickness of road surface.

[02Bandito1200S]

Glad you made it through cleanly.

Anyone else have an example?

[intimid8er]

Originally Posted by 02Bandito1200S

Glad you made it through cleanly.

Anyone else have an example?

Well.......


There is that thing with me and the duck a few weeks ago. Didn't work out so well for either of us...