Accident Avoidance Advice WITH poll...

[CaptCrashIdaho]

In the spirit of brotherhood let me agree:

R and RR bikes are not the wisest choices for newbies. They can be TOO responsive.

Likewise I would suggest against ANY bike larger than 650cc.

Kumbiya!

[Clint]

Thank you for conforming. Now finish your gruel.

[Uncle Bob]

Finally wore him down !

Now how long was your longest wheelie ?

[Thundurburd]

Oh noooo! Now my S50 is too big. I was just sitting here innocently watching you guys, and now, well, I feel the need to jump in.

Being a cruiser guy I had nothing of value to add concerning R bikes (although that hasn't necessarily stopped me in the past.) Some of the 'experts' approve of 800cc cruisers as starter bikes but this could just be part of the trend of everything getting bigger in the motorcycle world. Having not owned a motorcycle for several decades before this summer I consider myself as a newbie, again. I bought a S50 last summer and while everything has gone well, I think to be fair I would say generally that an 800 is the upper limit if not borderline for a starter bike, in my opinion. It depends on several factors I suppose. Maybe it is a 650.

Just my 2 cents, an opinion of one guy, me.

I don't think there is a single answer, perhaps a range. There's no equation that you can solve for 'x'

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Originally Posted by CaptCrashIdaho

Likewise I would suggest against ANY bike larger than 650cc.

Kumbiya!

Ahhh the vague nature of language! Suggesting is one thing, forbidding is another! Wink.

OH, and wheelies are very dangerous. I wouldn't recommend--er, suggest--them.

[Thundurburd]

Originally Posted by CaptCrashIdaho

Suggesting is one thing, forbidding is another!

Yeah, vague works for me.

[omegajim]

Thank you for conforming. Now finish your gruel.

You had gruel for supper?

And I missed out?

rats. Gruel with syrup and ketchup, it hits the spot.

Let the kids drive whatever they want; the county workers will come along with their scoop shovels soon enough.

...............some people wonder why our highway fatality rate is as high as it is; I've come to be amazed that it is as low as it is.

[oyrider]

I adjust my riding style to fit the machine I'm on. I cruise on the M50 and do something more aggressive on the 600 (with three R's!!). Perhaps a tiered licensing system would improve "safety", or require classes and counseling before getting a license and buying a bike.

Uncle Bob, a million posts? You a busy boy!

[oyrider]

Hey, anyone remember starting riding on 100cc or less? And what about dirt experience? The "ton" was a major barrier. Oh yeah, gasoline was 25 cents a gallon too. Must be old...

[Uncle B]

Originally Posted by oyrider

I adjust my riding style to fit the machine I'm on. I cruise on the M50 and do something more aggressive on the 600 (with three R's!!). Perhaps a tiered licensing system would improve "safety", or require classes and counseling before getting a license and buying a bike.

Uncle Bob, a million posts? You a busy boy!

Got to get a license of any type for some of the people out there riding.

[omegajim]

I think there should be a license type for everybody driving.

Me, I started out with a 350, it worked well, then I went to a 750.

I like my current 850. I like the Kawasaki 900, and someday I going to buy one.

If I don't find a used Honda shadow 1100 first.

If you restricted kids from buying expensive (to them) and way too fast motorcycles, what would happen to the crotch rocket market?

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Originally Posted by omegajim

If you restricted kids from buying expensive (to them) and way too fast motorcycles, what would happen to the crotch rocket market?

Kids? Let's see what the Oregon State Police Media Release Archive has to share:

Two 139 MPH Motorcyclists Cited for Reckless Driving and Speed Violations

10/30/2007
Lieutenant Gregg Hastings
Public Information Officer
Office: (503) 731-3020 ext. 247

Two Salem-area men were cited Saturday afternoon for Reckless Driving and Exceeding the Speed Limit in Excess of 100 MPH after an Oregon State Police (OSP) trooper stopped them after they were allegedly going 139 mph in a 55 mph speed zone on a rural county road south of Independence.

On October 27, 2007 at approximately 12:25 p.m. OSP Senior Trooper Michael Iwai was operating an unmarked OSP Dodge Charger southbound on Corvallis Road when two motorcycles passed him southbound in a no passing zone on a curve. As the motorcycles sped southbound, Senior Trooper Iwai accelerated and was able to confirm their speed on radar at 139 mph near the intersection with Davidson Road. Senior Trooper Iwai was able to stop the 2006 Yamaha and 2006 Honda motorcycles on the narrow county road which parallels Highway 99W without further incident.

The motorcycle operators were identified as JONATHAN J. KLEIMAN, age 30, and SHAWN T. WEST, age 36, both from Salem. Both were cited to appear for Reckless Driving and Exceeding the Speed Limit in Excess of 100 MPH.

### State of Oregon: Oregon State Police ###

Hmmm...Darn Kids....Here's more

Fatal Motorcycle Crash - Cascade Lakes Highway near Elk Lake

08/30/2007
Sergeant Eric Brown
Oregon State Police - Bend
Office: (541) 388-6213

Photograph link valid for 30 days - Source: Oregon State Police
http://www.flashnews.net/images/news...hwy.mp33.1.JPG

A Springfield man died Thursday afternoon in a single vehicle crash involving his motorcycle on Cascade Lakes Highway southwest of Mt. Bachelor.

On August 30, 2007 at approximately 4:36 p.m. a Harley Davidson motorcycle operated by JOHN MURRAY BROOKS, age 53, from Springfield, was southbound on Cascade Lakes Highway near milepost 33 on a day ride with a couple friends. As BROOKS approached a right curve, for unknown reasons he crossed into the oncoming lane and onto the shoulder where he skidded into several trees.


AND another

Fatal Motorcycle Crash - Highway 219 north of Newberg

09/03/2007
Lieutenant Gregg Hastings
Public Information Officer
Office: (503) 731-3020 ext. 247

Photograph links valid for 30 days - Source: Oregon State Police
http://www.flashnews.net/images/news...y219mp14.2.JPG
http://www.flashnews.net/images/news...y219mp14.1.JPG

One person died and a second was seriously injured after the motorcycle they were on went off Highway 219 (SW Hillsboro Highway) about six miles north of Newberg and crashed about 40 feet down an embankment. The crash was found by the victim's husband and step-son who were checking the area to see where they had gone during their group ride.

On September 2, 2007 at approximately 12:11 p.m. the victim and injured passenger were the second of three motorcycles on a family group ride spread apart about a quarter-of-a-mile southbound on Highway 219 near milepost 14. The victim operator, CAROLYN CAYLOR, age 51, from Okanogan, Washington, and her passenger, SHEL RAE CLADDAGH, age 38, from Canby, were southbound rounding a sharp left curve on a three-wheel 1994 Honda Goldwing when it drove off the shoulder between a guardrail and tree. The motorcycle continued down an approximate 40-foot embankment where it came to rest.

The victim's step-son on the first motorcycle and husband on the third motorcycle could not find them as they rode, so they returned through the area and discovered the crash scene.

CAROLYN CAYLOR was pronounced deceased at the scene. CLADDAGH was seriously injured and transported by LifeFlight to Oregon Health Sciences University where she is reported in stable condition. Both were wearing protective helmets.

Oregon State Police troopers from the McMinnville Area Command office are continuing the investigation. Troopers from the Banks work site assisted at the scene along with Washington County Sheriff's Office, Newberg and another local fire department, Washington County Medical Examiner and ODOT. One lane was closed for about 3 1/2 hours for the on scene investigation.
Alcohol and speed were not contributing factors.

Darn Drunken Goldwingers....Here's more o' them darn Sportbike kids...




Fatal Motorcycle Crash Involving Cow - Highway 7 Southwest of Baker City

09/25/2007
Sergeant Darin Helman
Oregon State Police - Baker City
Office: (541) 523-5867 ext. 4112

Photograph link valid for 30 days - Source: Oregon State Police
http://www.flashnews.net/images/news...cow.hwy7.1.JPG

A Milwaukie, Oregon-area man was killed and his wife injured Monday night after the motorcycle collided with a Black Angus cow on Highway 7 about 35 miles southwest of Baker City. The cow was also killed in the the crash.

On September 24, 2007 at about 8:00 p.m. an Oregon State Police (OSP) Sergeant, a Baker County Sheriff's Deputy, and Baker City Fire Department rescue personnel responded to a reported crash involving a motorcycle and cow Highway 7 near milepost 13. The crash location is about 35 miles from Baker City in southwest Baker County in an area designated as open range for cattle.

Preliminary investigation indicates a 2006 1200cc BMW motorcycle operated by LEIGH SPURLOCK, age 53, from Milwaukie, and his passenger/wife, DONNA SPURLOCK, age 48, were traveling south on Highway 7 near milepost 13 when it struck a Black Angus cow that was in the roadway. Both motorcycle occupants were ejected from the motorcycle.

A passing emergency room doctor from La Grande stopped and rendered aid to both people while waiting for rescue personnel to arrive. LEIGH SPURLOCK was pronounced deceased at the scene. DONNA SPURLOCK was transported by ambulance to St. Elizabeth Hospital with non-life threatening injuries. Both the operator and passenger were wearing motorcycle helmets. The cow was killed in the crash.

OSP troopers from the Baker City work site are continuing the investigation. ODOT and members of the Powder River Rural Fire Department also assisted during this incident.

Oops...hold on, got more darn kids stories here somewhere...


Serious Injury Multiple Motorcycle Crash - Interstate 5 north of Salem

10/08/2007
Sergeant Dale Young
Oregon State Police - Salem
Office: (503) 378-3387

Photograph links valid for 30 days - Source: Oregon State Police
http://www.flashnews.net/images/news...le.i5mp265.jpg
http://www.flashnews.net/images/news....i5mp265.2.jpg

Three people were injured, one critically, in a multiple motorcycle crash Sunday afternoon northbound Interstate 5 about two miles north of Brooks. Two motorcyclists are still being treated and a third has been released from the hospital.

On October 7, 2007 at approximately 1:35 p.m. a large group of motorcyclists were northbound on Interstate 5 as part of an organized ride to a reported funeral in the Portland area. The organized ride started in the Medford area and during it other motorcycles were joining in.
Near milepost 265 northbound, PATRICK H. LUCAS, age 37, from Molalla, was on the northbound shoulder waiting to join the ride. According to witnesses, the group slowed down to allow LUCAS to fall in the back but he instead attempted to merge into the middle of the group. LUCAS' motorcycle collided with another motorcycle operated by JERRY W. WORTHINGTON, age 69, from Butte Falls, Oregon. They both went down onto the highway. A third motorcycle operated by JOHN H. JENSEN, age 60, from Wilderville, Oregon collided with the first two motorcycles. A fourth motorcycle operated by PATRICK A. TREECE, age 56, from Coos Bay, ran over the wreckage but was not injured.

LUCAS and JENSEN were transported by ground ambulance to Salem Hospital. LUCAS is still being treated in the Intensive Care Unit. JENSEN was treated and released for minor injuries.

WORTHINGTON was critically injured and transported by LifeFlight to Oregon Health Sciences University. He is still listed in critical condition as of Monday morning.

All motorcyclists were wearing protective helmets.

Oregon State Police troopers from the Salem Area Command office are continuing the investigation. All lanes were closed about 15 minutes to allow for LifeFlight to land. The inside lane has been open but the center and right lanes were closed until being reopened about 6:15 p.m.

Actually feel bad for those guys...


Fatal Motorcycle Crash - Highway 138E east of Roseburg

07/18/2007
Lieutenant Douglas Ladd
Oregon State Police - Roseburg
Office: (541) 440-3334 ext. 225

A Roseburg-area man died Tuesday night after his motorcycle struck a guardrail and crashed on Highway 138E a couple miles east of Roseburg along Highway 138E. The victim's next of kin have been notified and his name is being released.

On July 17, 2007 at approximately 10:52 p.m. a 2007 BMW motorcycle operated by MARK WILLIAM DOTY, age 54, from Roseburg, was eastbound on Highway 138E near milepost 5 negotiating a curve when, for an unknown reason, it struck the guardrail along the eastbound shoulder. DOTY was subsequently ejected off the motorcycle and came to rest at the bottom of an embankment. The motorcycle came to rest over 1,000 feet east on the eastbound shoulder. DOTY was wearing a protective helmet but it came off during the crash.

Douglas County District 2 Fire personnel and West Ambulance responded to provide medical care but he died at the scene.

Oregon State Police troopers from the Roseburg Area Command office are continuing the investigation.

ODOT assisted with traffic control at the scene.

I thought all bike deaths were kids....hold on got another one...

Fatal Motorcycle Crash - Highway 42S west of Coquille

06/26/2007
Lieutenant Steve Smartt
Oregon State Police - Coos Bay
Office: (541) 888-2677

A Coquille-area man died Monday afternoon from injuries suffered earlier when he lost control of his motorcycle and crashed into a guardrail on Highway 42S about 1.5 miles west of Coquille.

On June 25, 2007 at approximately 4:55 p.m. a 2003 Kawasaki motorcycle operated by ARTHUR LEE DORNATH JR., age 48, from Coquille, was eastbound on Highway 42S near milepost 15 when DORNATH lost control and struck a guardrail. DORNATH was ejected from the motorcycle and seriously injured. He was transported by Coquille Valley Ambulance to Coquille Valley Hospital where he died from his injuries.

Oregon State Police troopers from the Coos Bay Area Command office are completing the investigation. Assistance at the scene provided by Coos County Sheriff's Office, Coquille Police Department, Coquille Fire Department, Coquille Ambulance and ODOT.

NOW, having beat my point into the ground (kids are dangerous but who's dying?) I would just like to nominate myself for LOOOOOONGEST post of the month...and potentially year.

and add with a wink: what flavor were the majority of these bikes?

[CaptCrashIdaho]

To answer my own question: They were all flavors. This was not a scientific thing at all. I just went to OSP Media Releases and looked for Fatal Motorcycle Crash.

I was struck by the age of all these poor peeps. And I think as we discuss motorcycle RISK we need to look to ALL segments of the population and ALL types of riding. What was the ole MSF catch phrase?

The more you know the better it gets?

Sounds good to me.

[Thundurburd]

Oregon sure looks like a dangerous place to ride motorcycles!

[omegajim]

..........and then there's just being stupid.

Sometimes I like to drive above the speed limit, but not anywhere near 139 mph.

In WI they can put in in jail for more than 25 over. So anything over 80, and you'll be in a lot of trouble.

[kay]

Originally Posted by CaptCrashIdaho

An interesting aside here:

Most times when I have used acceleration to get out of a jam, it was a jam I got myself in.

Another thing I have found is that EVERYBODY'S answer is to brake and if a car is merging into you and you brake to avoid them and they brake to avoid you...well, you just decelerate into each other.

The old MSF videos used to admit that in certain situations acceleration can be your pal.

Personally, I've used power to save myself far far less than braking...BUT I believe since every situation is different that we need to keep all our options in mind.

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Exactly, no two situations are identical and experience, knowledge and judgement will be your best friends when push comes to shove.

Being aware of your surroundings at all times is your #1 safety factor, awareness usually gives you more options and helps avoid many situations in the first place.

My problem is people who try and justify buying stupid fast bikes for the added "safety" power offers........ These are often the same people who are getting into trouble in the first place because of the power.

Case in point, last summer was driving home in a pick up hauling a horse trailer, check my mirrors regularly, come up on a slow moving semi, recheck my mirrors, see a single light maybe a mile back, hit the flashers and start to merge into the left lane, not half way into the lane that light (R bike ) is beside me???? So of course he throttles up using that power to "save" himself from the "stupid cager" who doesn't watch out for bikes ? BTW I was doing 120km/h in a 100km/h zone so it wasn't like I was blocking/slowing traffic.

Give me a break ! nobody buys a "R" to follow the rules of the road and trying to BS people including themselves into thinking they bought it for safety reasons is an oxymoron.

Can't agree with both of you more.
As I said, we've been taught in classes about accelerating to avoid trouble and the point was to have an option and be able to do it if needed. Having more options is always better than just having one.

The big question is always "making the right judgment based the situation".

Originally Posted by Thundurburd

Oregon sure looks like a dangerous place to ride motorcycles!

Hehe. It does!!!!

[Uncle Bob]

Capt, you're painting a picture that a lot of older riders are involved in crashes, well of course you're right. There are plenty of threads here discussing just that subject. But please don't try and make a point out of context.

I did the homework and to sum up the stats, under 40's die more often than over 40+'s. There are more over 40's riding therefore they are underrepresented in the stats.

Now you know what we were talking about in that other thread since you participated in it.

There are no absolutes in stats or in riding. People are going to die. Basic idea is how do we reduce the chances of that happening ( the only way to eliminate it is to rush to a bomb shelter and stay there till we die anyways ).

Fact: Inexperienced ( usually young ) riders on "R" are overrepresented in accident statistics. Not saying older riders aren't involved in accidents.

Now just how old was that cow ?

[omegajim]

I did the homework and to sum up the stats, under 40's die more often than over 40+'s. There are more over 40's riding therefore they are underrepresented in the stats.

..........and this surprises anyone?

I think it has been long established that the 16 - 24 group has a disproportionate amount of fatalities regardless of the vehicle they're driving; it's just that way.

Can we bring this number down?

Perhaps.

Do we know how to do this?

Perhaps.

Have we learned how to teach this better safer method?

Not yet.

It's like anything else; experience makes the difference.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Don't mean for this to sound the way it does but....go to the OSP website and find me 4 motorcycle fatalities under the age of 21. They archive about 3-4 years worth.

Dare ya.

Once, I was at a landfill with a reporter who kept telling me that diapers were filling up the landfill--we couldn't find any. I worry that 7 30+s die fore every 18 year old and we lie to ourselves and say: Damn kids! I honestly don't know the numbers but all we say is "over represented".

How many (a number, not per capita) 18-24 year olds died in the US in 2006?
How many (a number, not a percentage) 24-40 year olds?
How many (a number not a per thousand mile) 40+ year olds.

It's easy to be hating on R bikes and kids. BUT just ancedotal viewing of the Oregon stuff seems to indicate that they aren't dying in the sheer NUMBERS as 30+.

I'd hang around but I need to answer a couple of emails (from kids) from riders who deserve AND NEED respect so they can find role models and mentors so they can grow up to be the next generation! They act dumb, make poor decisions, and when they ask for help we owe them good clear answers with a dash o' respect!

I'm off to answer questions!

[LCA_koolaid37]

Speed never killed anyone. It's those that were accelerating that bit the bullet.

Edited to Add: I must agree with CaptCrashIdaho's last comment. The purchasing power of an 18 year old pales in comparison to that of a 30 year old; the age at which most adults are soundly into their professional career. It just doesn't seem plausible that all these 18 year olds are buying $10k bikes and running them off cliffs.