Indian Revival?

[scrimmer]

Well, it looks as if a group of investors is resurrecting this historic bike! Hopefully, these guys will get it right this time and it won't disappear again.
The really cool part is they'll be headquartered right here in my neck of the woods in Kings Mountain, NC just west of Charlotte. I haven't heard anything at all about this around here, just happened to stumble across it. We do have quite a pool of talent and resources in the motorsports in this area, this just might work out for them.
Check it out at:Indian Motorcycle - Pride of the American Road
Next weekend, (on call this weekend ) I plan on taking a ride out to the site to check on the progress of the facility and see what I can see. I'll post a report and pics later on if possible. I think this is pretty cool myself. Would like to know others thoughts on the matter.

[scrimmer]

No one going to comment just because I misspelled 'Revival'?

[919Hooligan]

Well, I sure hope they can pull it off. If they can make the bike reliable as a rock and run the company properly (unlike the guys who tried last time) then I think they'll do well. I don't think anyone ever gets tired of the old indian style.

[zukirob]

Very interesting. I especially like the way you can guarantee a purchase of a new 2008 bike for only $1000 down..... for a bike that doesn't exist yet. Now that's optimism.

They also say it's a premium bike and will be priced accordingly. Hmmm.

Sounds a tad half baked right now but I am nonetheless intrigued.

[DrBob]

I've been following this project for about a year now. I am cautiously optomistic, as they seem to have a realistic business model. They have no prayer of ever becoming a mainstream manufacturer again, and they know it. They will be a nitch manufacturer, selling high-end bikes in fairly low volume to those looking for something different who can afford to pay for it.

The initial workforce is 167 people, which includes design, engineering, marketing, sales, management, administrative, H/R, shipping and receiving, warehouse, supervisory, building maintenance, custodial and support staff people as well as production people. By comparison Victory has nearly 4000 employees, and Big Dog (5000 bikes a year) slightly over 300, which would indicate that Indian is shooting for somewhere around 1500-2000 bikes a year to start. If they can get sales and production up over 5000 bikes a year within 5 years, they should start to show black ink and will have a shot at long-term survival. But unless they have enough capital to ride out 5 years of losses, this incarnation of Indian will die just like the last one did.
The last version of Indian was looking good to stop operating at a loss in 2004, but the money ran out, investors were unwilling to dump more money into a company that had shown nothing but red ink, and Indian literally shut down overnight when no one could write a check to pay vendors for parts to keep assembling motorcycles. The investors were expecting a quick turn around and rapid profits like Harley had shown when executives bought the company back from AMF, when they should have known that a start-up company would loose money for 5-7 years, like Victory did, and that they would have to continute to put capital into the project to cover the losses, like Polaris did. Hopefully the new owners of the Indian brand name realize this, and have deep enough pockets.

As for a 'premium product at a premium price', that is the way to go. You make a lot more profit selling 1000 $50,000 bikes, than you do selling 50,000 $1000 bikes. The sales income will be the same in both cases, but the manufacturing overhead, parts, labor, distribution costs, warranty claim volume, number of sales people, and other related costs will be lower with the fewer number of bikes, so you have a much greater profit left over. High price also increases demand, by making the bike a luxury and prestige item: ever watch someone at a bike night show off their $40,000 Big Dog, proudly bragging that it cost twice as much as a Harley? You increase the value of a brand name by making it exclusive.

[Louis]

Originally Posted by scrimmer

No one going to comment just because I misspelled 'Revival'?

Fixed

[Colorado Cajun]

[jkersh]

DrBob didn't they open up a plant in Tahlequah, OK just before they quit? I remember hearing something about it and never heard if it came to pass.

[DrBob]

Naw, they were in California, at Gilroy. That factory was operating at a fraction of capacity when it suddenly closed.

There were several Indian revivals. The first one dates to 1990 and involved Philip Zanghi. He bought an interest in the "Indian" trademark and announced plans to revive the motorcycles. To fund it he licensed the use of the trademark to dozens of companies for use on clothing, etc. He sold 80,000 shares of stock in the Indian Motorcycle Company, Inc, and took deposits on hundreds of motorcycles. He sold over 100 dealerships, ultimately raising tens upon tens of millions of dollars. His company produced exactly ONE motorcycle, a non-running prototype. He then cleaned out the bank accounts and fled to Spain, as the whole thing was a scam. He had sold ‘exclusive’ rights to use the Indian trademark to multiple companies, sold 80,000 shares of a company not legally authorized to issue stock, and had used the dealership fees and customer deposits to buy a couple of houses. He was extradited and convicted of 23 counts of securities fraud, money laundering, filing false corporate papers, tax fraud, and a half-dozen other felonies. He’s still in jail.

The second Indian revival was Wayne Baughman's “Indian Motorcycle Manufacturing, Inc”, also from the early 1990s. He cobbled together a non-running prototype with a mock-up of the engine made out of wood and cardboard, and used it to announce HIS plans to revive Indian. He formed a legit company to issue stock. He managed to raise millions from investors, sign up hundreds of dealers at between $10,000 and $250,000 each, and get $3,200 deposits from hundreds of customers for bikes. But he was an idiot who knew nothing about the motorcycle industry or business in general. His business plan called for $400,000 in development costs and bikes to be in production in less than a year. Four years later his company had produced exactly TWO motorcycles, only one of which ran. The motor in the one running bike had cost over $1 million to have someone develop and hand-build, and it turned out the design of the cylinder heads violated someone else’s patent. Then it was discovered that Baughman had not actually legally purchased the “Indian” trademark, thinking that he was OK as long as he called his company “Indian Motorcycle Manufacturing” instead of “Indian Motorcycle Company”. He declared bankruptcy, and it was discovered that he had only $20,000 in cash left. All the rest had been spent on the two prototype motorcycles, one of which ran but had an illegal motor in it, and on an empty factory that he had hoped to one day start building bikes in. Talk about bad management.

The third attempt followed on the heals of Baughman’s attempt. Australian businessman Maurits Hayim-Langridge paid over 3.2 million for the legal rights to the Indian name in 1995. He then entered into a deal with John Britten (of Britten V-1000 superbike fame) to design a prototype Indian motorcycle. However, soon after this Britten died, and that was the end of that.

In 1999 California Motorcycle Company (we have one of their bikes) bought the Indian brand name and set up the Indian Motorcycle Company, Inc, in Gilroy. They ceased production in 2003, and sold the Indian brand name to the company setting up in North Carolina.

[scrimmer]

Originally Posted by Louis

Fixed

Thanks, Louis!

[scrimmer]

Hey, thanks for the commentary guys, I learned alot of stuff that I didn't know about Indian's recent history. I really hope this new group of investor's can pull it off. Only time will tell I guess. I do know that I won't be able to afford one!

[DrBob]

The funny thing is that everyone gets excited about Indian motorcycles, like they were something special back in the day and the company went out of business prematurely. Truth is the company deserved to go out of business. Indian's best sales year ever was 1913, when they sold about 30,000 bikes. Sales went steadily downhill from that point onwards, until the company went under in 1953. The V-twins from the early 1920s were good, with electric start and sprung rear swingarms when Harley still used kickers and hardtails, but in the late 1920s and 30s they lost their development edge by sticking with the same old thing. By WWII Indian bikes were obsolete, underpowered, and overweight, and the company was floundering. Army contract kept them afloat 1940-46. Post WWII they stopped building V-twins and tried to copy the British small-displacement singles and verticle twins, but the new bikes were poorly engineered, poorly built, and quality was dreadful. By 1949 most production had stopped, and the few bikes built 1950-53 were complete junk.
I've personally thought many times that the best thing to do would be to buy the brand name and produce about 1000 bikes a year, exact copies of the 1940 or 1941 Indian Chief, the bike everyone thinks of when you say "Indian."

[MagnumForce]

DrBob, you mentioned how horrible the Indian singles and vertical twins are. Any thoughts on their inline-4 models?

[DrBob]

The early fours (1927-35) developed a good reputation for easy starting, smooth power, and longevity. This made them very popular in police bikes, as they were very comfortable for a long day patrolling, with a long wheelbase, big balloon tires, and good suspension. However, the motor was an ‘F’ head, sort of a cross between a flathead and a modern OHV engine, with one overhead intake valve and one side exhaust valve. It also had only one carb, placed not at the center of the motor, but at the rear so the rear cylinder (furthest from the air flow) would run cooler. But this necessitated a very long intake runner to the front cylinders, so the front one in particular was starved for fuel all the time. So it didn’t make a whole lot of power (a modest 14 HP if I recall correctly), especially for a motor with four cylinders and 1260ccs. Both the Harley and Indian V-Twins made more power than that on fewer cylinders and much less displacement, about 16 HP. When Harley came out with the EL model powered by the new knucklehead in 1936, the Indian Four was in big trouble- the new top-valve Harley Twin made about two and a half times the power of the Indian Four. Add to that the ever increasing weight of the Indian from new features and more sheet metal, and the anemic fours were in trouble by the mid-30s; they took more effort and cost more to build, but buyers were not willing to pay a premium for a bike with less power.
Indian made a change for 1936 and 37, swapping the location of the intake and exhaust valves in an effort to improve the four. But with the single intake valve now on the side, the motor actually made LESS power.
Indian then came up with what we call the ‘late four’, 1938-42. Indian decided to redesign the motor for more performance. But they did NOT add overhead valves, retaining the ‘F’ head. Inexplicably, Indian did not make the new version any larger either. They also retained the single carb, making two carbs an option only on the sport model. So the redesigned four was woefully obsolete even as it was released, and it was not in production long.
The Indian Fours are great collector bikes, but like other Indian models they were kept in production long after technology passed them by. A 1938 Indian Four with an OHV, four-carb, inline four motor would have been a world beater. A 1938 Indian with the ‘F’ head, single carb four was pathetically obsolete.

[Dave Nadeau]

Just saw the movie the other day "Worlds fastest Indian". Very good movie for us old guys to keep dreaming.. Dreams just might come true. Stars Anthony Hopkins.

[4dtvman]

Very good movie

[scrimmer]

Yeah, that is an excellent movie IMO.

[Dave Nadeau]

DR Bob,, Now that you hae done the battle crusier thing how about a history of the Indian or Harley?? With pictures of course

[DrBob]

Hmmm...might be an idea! I often use Indian and Harley as examples in the business classes I teach. Harley is a great example of how good management and slow evolutionary changes to your products can put you on top and keep you there, while Indian was an example of how bad management and a failure to update your products can put you under.

There just might be another web page in my future...or maybe a book!

The drawback being that then I'd want to buy an old Indian, and I need another bike like I need a hole in the head. Mayeb I'll do a shovelhead page instead...

[Dave Nadeau]

DrBOB,

Did you ever buy the 07 street glide you were thinking about....how many bikes you own now? Running or other wise?