What's wrong with Harleys?

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Thanks for the welcome MoonRunner.
I didn't say I didn't like Harleys, I only stated I thought that signature line was cute. I won't be using it as my sig line.

[Marcellas Steele]

harleys are awesome. I have a Vulcan a800 and a Vstar 650 and a virago 535....... and Harleys are awesome. Like a corvette, they arent the best bikes in all ascpects, but there's nothing like a Harley, c'mon!

[Whiskey_williams]

I know alot of harley riders these days that USED to have metrics back in the day because they were young and couldn't afford a harley. But back then, the harley riders had never ridden anything BUT a harley so metric cruiser guys were looked down upon. But now these days the harley guys I know who are older now don't look down on other bikers cuz they know where they're coming from. They know that these days some metrics are really good bikes, and that young gus like me cant afford a harley, and they've been there. I think it may be getting to be a friendlier biker world....but maybe not, I don't really care lol, I wave at everyone!

[Rickster]

Originally Posted by Whiskey_williams

I know alot of harley riders these days that USED to have metrics back in the day because they were young and couldn't afford a harley. But back then, the harley riders had never ridden anything BUT a harley so metric cruiser guys were looked down upon. But now these days the harley guys I know who are older now don't look down on other bikers cuz they know where they're coming from. They know that these days some metrics are really good bikes, and that young gus like me cant afford a harley, and they've been there. I think it may be getting to be a friendlier biker world....but maybe not, I don't really care lol, I wave at everyone!

Well put!!

[Thundurburd]

This summer I bought a Suzuki S50 and have been somewhat surprised at the number of waves I have been getting from the Harley guys. While the S50 does look a little like a Sportster especially from the front, I wear either a bright orange jacket with reflective stripes or a bright orange t-shirt in hot weather, and a helmet, which clearly makes me stand out as un-Harley. I live about 20 miles from the main Harley plant and have a lot of respect for the company and what they have accomplished. They are a good member of the community.

[Rickster]

Originally Posted by Thundurburd

This summer I bought a Suzuki S50 and have been somewhat surprised at the number of waves I have been getting from the Harley guys. While the S50 does look a little like a Sportster especially from the front, I wear either a bright orange jacket with reflective stripes or a bright orange t-shirt in hot weather, and a helmet, which clearly makes me stand out as un-Harley. I live about 20 miles from the main Harley plant and have a lot of respect for the company and what they have accomplished. They are a good member of the community.

There is a group of Harley/Custom owners that call themselves Hamsters, that wear bright orange shirts. So, your not as un-Harley as you might think.

[omegajim]

Welcome aboard, Thundurburd.

More than a couple of us live within 20 miles of a Harley plant; heck I drive past their Menomonee Falls plant regularly.

Even thought about stopping in to test drive a bike on the 100th anniversary until I found out about the ridiculous wait.

[omegajim]

Banned in the USA, I say, banned in the USA~! (hummed to the tune of "Born in the USA)

[Karmak]

Originally Posted by dichotomous

lthen again I dont really like the look of any of the harleys, so I aint buying, but still.... and at least you know if 30 years your harley will be worth more than it is now..... like audis, more expensive than VW's, but they stay that way.

I have owned Harleys throughout the years and see many for sale. I have never heard of anyone getting anywhere near the price they thought/expected they would get for resale. If used HDs had low mileage, people would rather pay new to get the warranties, etc. If high miles-already parts replaced and lots of lost value. I have sold HDs and took my time, but never got anywhere near original asking price-I also bought into the myth of same or increased value. And if someone tells you they got the price they expected-let me see the proof. No one likes to be proved wrong. Additionally, four people I know who just bought HDs have had major parts go in the electrical system and two needed new starters after 1,000 miles. Just for the record, when I rode HDs, we were lucky to have friends who could strip the motors down almost blindfolded-and we often needed their skills....and a good chase van or truck. Now, if your talking about an 70's or 80's Sportster-they were so cheap maybe you might pay the same or more-but that's about it.

[Rickster]

Originally Posted by Karmak

I have owned Harleys throughout the years and see many for sale. I have never heard of anyone getting anywhere near the price they thought/expected they would get for resale. If used HDs had low mileage, people would rather pay new to get the warranties, etc. If high miles-already parts replaced and lots of lost value. I have sold HDs and took my time, but never got anywhere near original asking price-I also bought into the myth of same or increased value. And if someone tells you they got the price they expected-let me see the proof. No one likes to be proved wrong. Additionally, four people I know who just bought HDs have had major parts go in the electrical system and two needed new starters after 1,000 miles. Just for the record, when I rode HDs, we were lucky to have friends who could strip the motors down almost blindfolded-and we often needed their skills....and a good chase van or truck. Now, if your talking about an 70's or 80's Sportster-they were so cheap maybe you might pay the same or more-but that's about it.

I don't have the proof, and I don't need it, but I bought a new FLHS in 1991 for $9500, and I sold it in 2002 for $10,500. It was completely stock except for some motor work that I did myself. Those days are probably long past, but this thread isn't about what Harley's may, or may not be worth, it's about what's wrong with Harley's. So if (in your words) you have some proof about what's wrong with Harley's, let's see it. One or two cases that you know about isn't proof, I can tell you about just as many metrics that have had issues.

[texrider]

Yep. When I bought my V2K, it quickly leaked oil from a minor seal. That was something wrong with my metric. My 900 Vulcan's front brake pads were loud, squealing crap from day one. More stuff wrong with my metric. Kawasaki paid to replace the leaking seal on the 2000, and there has not been another issue with that bike leaking anything. I ended up buying better brakes for the 900, and problem solved.

Some of it ticked me off, but not to the point of swearing off the brand. Overall, the Kawasakis have been the best bike experience I've had so far.

What it comes down to for me, is that HD really does not suit me as a purchase decision, and that's what's wrong with them IMO. To each his own, I'd say.

[Karmak]

Originally Posted by Rickster

I don't have the proof, and I don't need it, but I bought a new FLHS in 1991 for $9500, and I sold it in 2002 for $10,500. It was completely stock except for some motor work that I did myself. Those days are probably long past, but this thread isn't about what Harley's may, or may not be worth, it's about what's wrong with Harley's. So if (in your words) you have some proof about what's wrong with Harley's, let's see it. One or two cases that you know about isn't proof, I can tell you about just as many metrics that have had issues.

A lifetime of working on them. To the point that yes, some people don't have problems, but far more do and if you can't do the work yourself-get raped by the dealers. I have owned many Kawis, Yamahas and Suzies and in most cases, almost trouble free. I have owned 5 HDs (I'm 58, by the way) and have never owned one that didn't have valve problems, carb problems, gear problems, blown light problems, oil leaking from all kinds of crazy places, etc. I rode with guys who rode them as basic transportation, not posers or weekend warriors. We were always working on them. My brother in law's uncle owned an HD dealership. My dirt riding buddy was a HD salesman and mechanic. So, not isolated or two cases-but almost a lifetime. In fact, one of the best HD mechanic I knew was deaf and couldn't speak, but was a darn good mechanic, believe it or not by a few written notes and "feel." I guess everyone's experiences are different, but drawing on 58 years of all the guys I knew who had/have them (one MC gang included)-I will never own another (and I can certainly afford it) when you can get so much more performance and value for less and even the same, if you count BMW. If you like HDs, fine, nothing wrong with that, but as for performance and reliability, I'll go with with the odds that I've experienced.

[dcstrng]

<If you like HDs, fine, nothing wrong with that, but as for performance and reliability, I'll go with with the odds that I've experienced….>

Although I’ve got a year or two on ya, it sounds like your Harley credentials are as strong as anyone… nonetheless, like cops and emergency room staff, wrenches seem to see things at their worst… I’ve yet to ride a perfect bike and I’ve done the Harley, Limey, metric things since the 60s… Until the Honda 750 totally changed motorcycling, I don’t think one bike had much to recommend over another – at least from the reliability stand-point… As a buddy of mine used to say, one of the worst things that happened to motorcycling was the invention of the weenie button – with the advent of the electric starter, many riders quit wrenching… customarily, traditional riders had to work on their scoot fairly regularly, or you couldn’t boot her to life… and it’s still a great idea.

Nonetheless, most of what you described sounds like a description of my Nomad… leaky, prone to gremlins of one sort or another, compared to my Evo, it sounds like a thrashing machine and excepting at idle, it’ll out-vibrate my Harley nine-ways to Sunday and despite metric lore, in 100 degree paddle-foot traffic, the Harley is the one I prefer to be on… so, why don’t I get rid of the ol’ Nomad… well, I understand it, and it’s carried me many a mile and seems to understand me… but as you say, the Harley surely ain’t bullet proof, and mine has had a electrical gremlins all its own… I’m not very parochial (for or against) when it comes to bike brands, and I get a tad impatient with those who are… the bike that runs the best are ridden by folks who ride regularly and can at least do their own first-echelon maintenance, preferably more… and, no, being able to bolt on a chrome doodad doesn’t count – at a minimum a rider should be able to change oil, bulbs, fuses/breakers, pads, adjust valves, etc., etc… and the like, and better if they can rebuild simple things like clutches, calipers etc… but the problem with most bike ain’t the bike (no more than any other…) but the rider…

Fact is, compared to the simplest, least reliable econo-box on the road most bikes are junk – but we put up with `em, cuz we ain’t too bright guess…

[JmalB]

Or just plain crazy...

[omegajim]

Fact is, compared to the simplest, least reliable econo-box on the road most bikes are junk – but we put up with `em, cuz we ain’t too bright guess…

It's called "patriotism" and I can make my point; oh boy can I make my point.

Remember the '80s? Remember when every other piece of junk american car had the bumper sticker "buy american"? It seemed they were either American motors, Ford Pintos, or Chevrolet Chevettes. One heap after another, and the bumper sticker, well that was just damn priceless.

HD will learn to compete, HD will improve, HD has saturated the market, now they need to improve their product. HD could do worse than buy a few dozen new, a few dozen 10 year old and a few dozen 20 year old metrics and do some serious homework.

Because quite frankly, if they don't, HD will be little more than Triumph in the world view of things; very distinct, but not much for market share.

[dcstrng]

<HD could do worse than buy a few dozen new, a few dozen 10 year old and a few dozen 20 year old metrics and do some serious homework.>

But not much – wouldn't recommend it...

Perhaps I was overly diplomatic in my post, so let me be blunt… Between my metric and the HD I have approaching 120K on these machines – with close to the same miles on each… the metric is parked most of the time because of reliability factors, I ride the HD daily (average of about 750 miles a week commuting) because I must ride something that is trustworthy… from a pure riding standpoint, I continue to enjoy both scoots and had the Kawasaki out this past weekend for a couple of hundred miles, but at least in my world the metric has required far more unscheduled maintenance than the Harley…

My Harley is an Evo – the best engine Harley ever built in my book… I usually characterize the difference between my Harley and my Nomad as this – Harley is an antiquated, crude design refined to within a gnat’s eyelash of perfection… the Nomad is a far more modern and sophisticated design whose manufacturing execution is crude and unrefined… Now in fairness to both bikes, my Harley Evo was built ten years into that particular model run and the Nomad (a `99 built in 1998...) was one of the very first of its, so arguably that could make a sizeable difference… but the bottom line (from my point of view) there are very few universal statements about one brand of bike or another, that are universally true all of the time…

[intimid8er]

Originally Posted by omegajim

HD has saturated the market, now they need to improve their product.

Is it really improve? Or more should they be looking to diversify the product?

[omegajim]

Okay, intimidator, you made your point. The evolution is all that and a bag of chips.

Unfortunately, Harley can't (or won't) move too far from the air cooled v-twin. And there is only so big a market for that. Even if they are exporting over half of their production (last I heard).

and for dc

the Nomad is a far more modern and sophisticated design whose manufacturing execution is crude and unrefined…

I like to refer to these later years as "built cheap." I don't think the new bikes are built quite as well as the old bikes, because quite frankly, it's a tough market. When 3 - 400 bucks is a make or break, people often as not go for the cheaper model, all things being equal.

Then you have odd and strange things occur like, well like shaft drive failure on machines with less than 20 k.

[Rickster]

Originally Posted by omegajim

It's called "patriotism" and I can make my point; oh boy can I make my point.

Remember the '80s? Remember when every other piece of junk american car had the bumper sticker "buy american"? It seemed they were either American motors, Ford Pintos, or Chevrolet Chevettes. One heap after another, and the bumper sticker, well that was just damn priceless.

HD will learn to compete, HD will improve, HD has saturated the market, now they need to improve their product. HD could do worse than buy a few dozen new, a few dozen 10 year old and a few dozen 20 year old metrics and do some serious homework.

Because quite frankly, if they don't, HD will be little more than Triumph in the world view of things; very distinct, but not much for market share.

Dam Jim, that must be some good stuff your smoking, I really couldn't figure out what it was your trying to say. I almost got a buzz myself, just reading it.

[intimid8er]

Originally Posted by omegajim

Okay, intimidator, you made your point. The evolution is all that and a bag of chips.

Jim. Sorry, I wasn't trying to make a point. I'm sorry you took that the wrong way.

I was agreeing with you, but also looking to see if you might think, like I do, that they will no longer have an unlimited pool of customers to sell the same designs to, and that maybe they should be looking to evolve their bike designs???

It could be argued that the Buell lineup gives HD the diversification that I'm speaking of. But to some.....A Buell ain't a Harley. The other side of the coin is, a Harley ain't a Buell. I believe they are trying with the V-Rod platform to appeal to a different buyer, but I still think they should be looking deeper to diversify the lineup.

That's just my opinions though....