C50 OEM Windshield - Not enough? - Motorcycle-Journal Forums

automogul · 01-09-2006, 07:39 PM

Greetings all! It's been a bit since I've been on checking things out. I've done a little riding, and I got some goodies over Christmas to enhance my ride quite a bit.

I got an OE windshield for my C50, and an OE set of saddle bags. The saddle bags are on, and the windscreen is on. I took it out for a spin and noticed some SERIOUS buffeting at speeds above 40-45 mph. I tried doing some adjustments, and I'm starting to get frustrated.

The only way I can comfortably ride on this bike now is to tuck my head up behind the shield or scrunch way down - hurting my back either way. If I sit anywhere close to my normal riding height, the darn thing buzzes my head so hard I can't see strait. It's bad.

The screen comes right up to the bridge of my nose when I adjust it all the way up as high as it will go. I've also tried rocking the thing forward more, and that seemed to help a little. I'm 6'1, 30" inseam. I sure hope I can adjust this thing because I really like the screen and I'd hate to think I just wasted some serious bread buying something that won't work.

The buffeting is so bad that I really don't enjoy riding with the screen. At the same time, not having the wind shoving me off my bike was quite easy to get used to, so I'm not enjoying riding without it either. I know that sounds whiney, but... Consider that 95% of my riding is at speeds at or above 55 mph.

If I can't adjust this shield some, then I guess I'll be stuck buying a memphis shades Fats 21" or something. My wife got a Big Shot for her M50, and she really enjoys it. Wish I could agree. Hope someone can help. Do I need to try adjusting this thing DOWN some? Should I angle it BACK more towards me? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I want to ride again....

blackie1491 · 01-09-2006, 08:06 PM

The OEM windshield comes in diff. heights, I know mine is at the lowest setting and is just right for me, 5'7".

Some have added lowers to help and some have rotated the bars, to change seating position. Others have added risers to change the seating position.

A good shop will work with you to try to solve the problem.

MagnumForce · 01-09-2006, 08:16 PM

I have read other posts that said that lowers helped solve the buffeting problem. The turbulence you're catching is coming from behind/inside of the windshield. Try the lowers out and see if they help.

mikemc · 01-09-2006, 11:51 PM

The folks over at VR.com swear by the lowers. Gonna try to make a set and if I bugger that up, buy a set.

automogul · 01-10-2006, 12:40 PM

Does Suzuki manufacture a set of lowers, or should I go with a set from the aftermarket - e.g. Memphis Shades?

I'm not too familiar with the lowers yet. I was all absorbed with the windshield. I did a quick run through Oneida and didn't find anything...

golftee · 01-10-2006, 01:31 PM

i installed the memphis 19 on my M50 and had buffeting, went and got the memphis lowers on mine and got rid of most of the head buffeting.......they worked for me, much better up at 70 now.........

automogul · 01-10-2006, 02:57 PM

I consulted with my local Motorcycle sage. He gave me an idea that I am going to try first before jumping off the deep end and buying anything. He suggested trying to duct tape some thick cardboard sections where the lowers would be. If that doesn't seem to help, then he suggested trying to tape some on the top of the windscreen. That should help me isolate the issue and find out where exactly the turbulence is being generated.

I live out in the middle of nowhere, so no one will even see my frankenstein experiment. I'll just do a little work to isolate the area and then based on the results, I'll purchase something that will help. If the lowers will work, I'll snatch them up. If I need a taller windscreen, I'll consider a replacement or some extensions. If it's both... well... then I'm really going to have to shell out some cash.

Either way, I'll keep you guys posted on what seems to work.

automogul · 01-10-2006, 02:58 PM

I forgot to ask, Does anyone have pictures of their bikes with lowers that I can see? I'd like to get an idea as to how big to make my sections and where to locate them.

Woops! Ment to add that as an edit.

Oh well.

md2lgyk · 01-10-2006, 04:01 PM

The OEM windshield for my Marauder was only 15 inches high. The buffeting was so bad I took it off after one ride. I installed a Memphis Fats 21-inch shield about a year ago and couldn't be happier.

jpwM50 · 01-10-2006, 04:05 PM

AutoMugol, please check your PM's

mr_resistible · 01-10-2006, 11:39 PM

Try slamming it all the way down, test ride it and see what it does. Just to be courious.... I had to cut 2-1/2 inches off of mine. I'm only 5'9" but I think my windshield hits me right about my lower lip. I thought it was strange when I had mine adjusted too high I had really bad buffeting and when I lowered it, it went away.

automogul · 01-11-2006, 07:39 AM

I figured out the problem with the windscreen last night. It was so nice yesterday that I had to give the bike a ride. My wife and I hopped on the bikes and rode to my parents' house. I left my windscreen there when I took it off (in a fit of frustration). Well, I put it back on and as an experiment, I set it as low as I could (this was before i had a chance to read your post Mr Resistible). The wife and I started our ride home, and shortly into the ride, I got up to about 45-50. I noticed the buffeting again. I was frustrated, but didn't loose my cool.

I started moving around to see if I could isolate the source. I stuck my hand over my head and felt a pretty good amount of steady wind hitting my helmet. That was because I had lowered my shield down. Then I started feeling around in front of me to see if I could detect any turbulence (as ezridr1 and mikemc suggested). As soon as I stuck my arm out, I felt a change in the vibration - less of it. Hm. So I started feeling around some more. I found out that the wind IS coming up from below the screen. It's hitting the gas tank. From there is being split. Half of it hits my knees and legs. The other half is hitting my stomach, coming up my chest and hitting my chin and jaw. If I rock back some, I can get the wind to go strait for my jaw without even hitting my stomach. It's a VERY substantial amount too, with a very good pressure. I also observed that if I positioned my left arm in certain ways (so as to obstruct the wind), I could get the buffeting to COMPLETELY stop (and this was with the windscreen being VERY low for me).

I needed some gas, so I stopped and tanked up. I had my wife try riding my bike to see if she had the same problem. Well, she didn't, but she DID notice that a substantial amount of wind was hitting her in the stomach - moreso than her bike. On her bike, I noticed that I was experiencing the same problem, but not as badly. If I moved my arm around... once again, it stopped. Her wind screen is even LOWER than mine is and I started to notice just a little bit of helmet buffeting. It wasn't anything I would call an aggrivation though, especially not like what I was feeling on my bike.

So, long story short... I'm thinking that lowers would most definitely cure my ails. Who makes the best set? Should I go with Memphis Shades? Are there any other companies that make them and perhaps cheaper? Should I settle for the cheaper ones with the problem being this severe? Perhaps the Memphis Shades will be heavier and more substantial. I want to make sure this problem gets ousted and stays ousted!

I was really REALLY happy last night when I found that out. It was really uncomfortable, but when I had my arm in front of me blocking the wind, it made the ride quite enjoyable! I'm going to do some more research on lowers. Hopefully I can find a cheaper set that will work just as well. What a relief. It looks like my cool windscreen wasn't a waste after all.

Thanks for all of the advice everyone. I've really found this to be really REALLY helpful. My faith in my windshield selection has been restored. I'm just glad I didn't waste the money. Any more advice on lowers would be appreciated. Thanks again, and hats off gents.

Capt Griff · 01-11-2006, 08:19 AM

Here are the ones I used, all buffetting (well 95%) is now gone. They will fit with the OEM windshield and the OEM Lightbar. Do not worry, they will fit even with the turn signals down on the the OEM light bar, so tight that you cannot even get at credit card between the back of the turn signal housing and the lowers. You will not regret it. http://store.valueaccessories.net/in...OD&ProdID=1353

Good Luck, Griff

Clintoysterwood · 02-04-2006, 12:55 PM

Capt Griff,
Appreciate the discussion from all on the buffetting. I lowered the oem windshield and it did nothing for highway speed buffetting. Duck taped some plastic where the lowers would go and that removed most of the buffetting. I appreciate all the discussion and will order the lowers. Mileage loss is not a problem if it solves the highway speed buffetting. Clint

buellwinkle · 02-05-2006, 03:32 PM

The problem with a conventional windshield on some bikes like the C50 is that it's too far from the rider. It's funny but same windshield on a Harley Heritage Softtail that works well for it has serious buffeting problems on a Harley Road King. You can get a much taller windshield but you are going to have a tough time seeing through it if it rains/drizzles, you have to be able to see over it comfortably. The second problem of having a windshield that's mounted so far foward is that it makes the bike feel unstable, all the weight and pressure that's forward of the center of axis, not a clever design. Small side winds can make the steering interesting.

The solution to the buffeting is to use lowers. Some people believe this works by preventing wind from coming up from the under the windshield. My belief is that it works by making the windshield bigger and lowering the turbulance/buffeting sweet spot from head level. Does nothing for the handling.

A complete solution is Corbins Trimtab, it's small, puts the pressure behind the center of axis, diverts airflow above your head and allows you to have an open view of the road so it's a perfect solution. The problem is that it's ugly, at least to me and expensive at $800.

http://www.corbin.com/suzuki/volusiatrimtab.shtml

Danr · 02-05-2006, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buellwinkle

The problem with a conventional windshield on some bikes like the C50 is that it's too far from the rider. It's funny but same windshield on a Harley Heritage Softtail that works well for it has serious buffeting problems on a Harley Road King. You can get a much taller windshield but you are going to have a tough time seeing through it if it rains/drizzles, you have to be able to see over it comfortably. The second problem of having a windshield that's mounted so far foward is that it makes the bike feel unstable, all the weight and pressure that's forward of the center of axis, not a clever design. Small side winds can make the steering interesting.

The solution to the buffeting is to use lowers. Some people believe this works by preventing wind from coming up from the under the windshield. My belief is that it works by making the windshield bigger and lowering the turbulance/buffeting sweet spot from head level. Does nothing for the handling.

A complete solution is Corbins Trimtab, it's small, puts the pressure behind the center of axis, diverts airflow above your head and allows you to have an open view of the road so it's a perfect solution. The problem is that it's ugly, at least to me and expensive at $800.

Me too and the price is obscene.

http://www.corbin.com/suzuki/volusiatrimtab.shtml

Rocken · 02-05-2006, 10:46 PM

I like the crome lowers.... I have seen some with vents that look real nice...

Clintoysterwood · 02-06-2006, 10:45 AM

Somewhere on this thread I picked up this URL for chrome lowers. http://store.valueaccessories.net/in...OD&ProdID=1353 Does anyone have experience with these and will they work with the OEM windshield? These seem to look better that the clear acrylic. This is to reduce buffetting at 70+.

I looked at another site and they seem to be restricted to National and used the light bar and windshield as part of their install.

Clint

Danr · 02-06-2006, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clintoysterwood

Somewhere on this thread I picked up this URL for chrome lowers. http://store.valueaccessories.net/in...OD&ProdID=1353 Does anyone have experience with these and will they work with the OEM windshield? These seem to look better that the clear acrylic. This is to reduce buffetting at 70+.

I looked at another site and they seem to be restricted to National and used the light bar and windshield as part of their install.

Clint

These are supposed to work with The OEM Windshield and Light Bar for the C50, I have these on order as well as my Friend, They are currently on B.O. seems they cant keep them in stock, as word has gotten around that these are currently the only one's that work with this configuration.

Rocken · 02-06-2006, 09:07 PM

Yes those are the ones I was talking about. I have seen some with the vents on them as well... I will look for the URL...

I gess it is the same one...
http://207.97.194.229/Automotive/Landing666a1353.html

http://store.valueaccessories.net/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1353

01-09-2006, 07:39 PM	#1 (permalink)
automogul In Training Joined: Nov 2005 Bike: k6 C50 & K5 M50 Location: Holly Hill, SC Posts: 141	C50 OEM Windshield - Not enough? Greetings all! It's been a bit since I've been on checking things out. I've done a little riding, and I got some goodies over Christmas to enhance my ride quite a bit. I got an OE windshield for my C50, and an OE set of saddle bags. The saddle bags are on, and the windscreen is on. I took it out for a spin and noticed some SERIOUS buffeting at speeds above 40-45 mph. I tried doing some adjustments, and I'm starting to get frustrated. The only way I can comfortably ride on this bike now is to tuck my head up behind the shield or scrunch way down - hurting my back either way. If I sit anywhere close to my normal riding height, the darn thing buzzes my head so hard I can't see strait. It's bad. The screen comes right up to the bridge of my nose when I adjust it all the way up as high as it will go. I've also tried rocking the thing forward more, and that seemed to help a little. I'm 6'1, 30" inseam. I sure hope I can adjust this thing because I really like the screen and I'd hate to think I just wasted some serious bread buying something that won't work. The buffeting is so bad that I really don't enjoy riding with the screen. At the same time, not having the wind shoving me off my bike was quite easy to get used to, so I'm not enjoying riding without it either. I know that sounds whiney, but... Consider that 95% of my riding is at speeds at or above 55 mph. If I can't adjust this shield some, then I guess I'll be stuck buying a memphis shades Fats 21" or something. My wife got a Big Shot for her M50, and she really enjoys it. Wish I could agree. Hope someone can help. Do I need to try adjusting this thing DOWN some? Should I angle it BACK more towards me? Any suggestions would be appreciated. I want to ride again.... __________________ My Bike - Black 2006 C50 - C50 & M50 Pictures Wife's Bike - Black 2005 M50 - C50 & M50 Pictures ------------------------------------------------ Teal 1966 Coupe Deluxe w/ Modified 302 - 1966 Pictures

01-09-2006, 08:16 PM	#3 (permalink)
MagnumForce Throttle Jockey Joined: May 2005 Bike: 05 M50, 06 CBR600F4i Location: Sitting on the can... duh! Posts: 3,160	I have read other posts that said that lowers helped solve the buffeting problem. The turbulence you're catching is coming from behind/inside of the windshield. Try the lowers out and see if they help. __________________ "I love the smell of toner in the morning… it's the smell of victory!" MAJ M, Staff Officer

01-10-2006, 12:40 PM	#5 (permalink)
automogul In Training Joined: Nov 2005 Bike: k6 C50 & K5 M50 Location: Holly Hill, SC Posts: 141	Does Suzuki manufacture a set of lowers, or should I go with a set from the aftermarket - e.g. Memphis Shades? I'm not too familiar with the lowers yet. I was all absorbed with the windshield. I did a quick run through Oneida and didn't find anything... __________________ My Bike - Black 2006 C50 - C50 & M50 Pictures Wife's Bike - Black 2005 M50 - C50 & M50 Pictures ------------------------------------------------ Teal 1966 Coupe Deluxe w/ Modified 302 - 1966 Pictures

01-10-2006, 02:57 PM	#7 (permalink)
automogul In Training Joined: Nov 2005 Bike: k6 C50 & K5 M50 Location: Holly Hill, SC Posts: 141	I consulted with my local Motorcycle sage. He gave me an idea that I am going to try first before jumping off the deep end and buying anything. He suggested trying to duct tape some thick cardboard sections where the lowers would be. If that doesn't seem to help, then he suggested trying to tape some on the top of the windscreen. That should help me isolate the issue and find out where exactly the turbulence is being generated. I live out in the middle of nowhere, so no one will even see my frankenstein experiment. I'll just do a little work to isolate the area and then based on the results, I'll purchase something that will help. If the lowers will work, I'll snatch them up. If I need a taller windscreen, I'll consider a replacement or some extensions. If it's both... well... then I'm really going to have to shell out some cash. Either way, I'll keep you guys posted on what seems to work. __________________ My Bike - Black 2006 C50 - C50 & M50 Pictures Wife's Bike - Black 2005 M50 - C50 & M50 Pictures ------------------------------------------------ Teal 1966 Coupe Deluxe w/ Modified 302 - 1966 Pictures

01-10-2006, 02:58 PM	#8 (permalink)
automogul In Training Joined: Nov 2005 Bike: k6 C50 & K5 M50 Location: Holly Hill, SC Posts: 141	I forgot to ask, Does anyone have pictures of their bikes with lowers that I can see? I'd like to get an idea as to how big to make my sections and where to locate them. Woops! Ment to add that as an edit. Oh well. __________________ My Bike - Black 2006 C50 - C50 & M50 Pictures Wife's Bike - Black 2005 M50 - C50 & M50 Pictures ------------------------------------------------ Teal 1966 Coupe Deluxe w/ Modified 302 - 1966 Pictures

01-09-2006, 08:06 PM	#2 (permalink)
blackie1491 I took the All Bran Challenge Joined: Jun 2005 Bike: C50SE Location: Aldergrove, B.C., Canada Posts: 7,333	The OEM windshield comes in diff. heights, I know mine is at the lowest setting and is just right for me, 5'7". Some have added lowers to help and some have rotated the bars, to change seating position. Others have added risers to change the seating position. A good shop will work with you to try to solve the problem.

01-09-2006, 11:51 PM	#4 (permalink)
mikemc Newbie Joined: Dec 2005 Bike: 2005 C50 Location: Port Moody, British Columbia Posts: 2	The folks over at VR.com swear by the lowers. Gonna try to make a set and if I bugger that up, buy a set.

01-10-2006, 01:31 PM	#6 (permalink)
golftee Ditch Magnet Joined: Apr 2005 Bike: Red M50 Location: Renton, Washington Posts: 174	i installed the memphis 19 on my M50 and had buffeting, went and got the memphis lowers on mine and got rid of most of the head buffeting.......they worked for me, much better up at 70 now.........

01-10-2006, 04:01 PM	#9 (permalink)
md2lgyk Wants Better Weather Joined: May 2004 Bike: '03 Marauder 800 Location: Harpers Ferry, WV Posts: 665	The OEM windshield for my Marauder was only 15 inches high. The buffeting was so bad I took it off after one ride. I installed a Memphis Fats 21-inch shield about a year ago and couldn't be happier. __________________ "The great object is, that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun." - Thomas Jefferson

01-10-2006, 04:05 PM	#10 (permalink)
jpwM50 Clutch Cadet Joined: Jul 2005 Bike: Blue M50 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 944	AutoMugol, please check your PM's __________________

01-10-2006, 11:39 PM	#11 (permalink)
mr_resistible Wants Better Weather Joined: Dec 2004 Bike: 05' C50 Location: Gering Ne Posts: 665	Try slamming it all the way down, test ride it and see what it does. Just to be courious.... I had to cut 2-1/2 inches off of mine. I'm only 5'9" but I think my windshield hits me right about my lower lip. I thought it was strange when I had mine adjusted too high I had really bad buffeting and when I lowered it, it went away. __________________ ]

01-11-2006, 07:39 AM	#12 (permalink)
automogul In Training Joined: Nov 2005 Bike: k6 C50 & K5 M50 Location: Holly Hill, SC Posts: 141	I figured out the problem with the windscreen last night. It was so nice yesterday that I had to give the bike a ride. My wife and I hopped on the bikes and rode to my parents' house. I left my windscreen there when I took it off (in a fit of frustration). Well, I put it back on and as an experiment, I set it as low as I could (this was before i had a chance to read your post Mr Resistible). The wife and I started our ride home, and shortly into the ride, I got up to about 45-50. I noticed the buffeting again. I was frustrated, but didn't loose my cool. I started moving around to see if I could isolate the source. I stuck my hand over my head and felt a pretty good amount of steady wind hitting my helmet. That was because I had lowered my shield down. Then I started feeling around in front of me to see if I could detect any turbulence (as ezridr1 and mikemc suggested). As soon as I stuck my arm out, I felt a change in the vibration - less of it. Hm. So I started feeling around some more. I found out that the wind IS coming up from below the screen. It's hitting the gas tank. From there is being split. Half of it hits my knees and legs. The other half is hitting my stomach, coming up my chest and hitting my chin and jaw. If I rock back some, I can get the wind to go strait for my jaw without even hitting my stomach. It's a VERY substantial amount too, with a very good pressure. I also observed that if I positioned my left arm in certain ways (so as to obstruct the wind), I could get the buffeting to COMPLETELY stop (and this was with the windscreen being VERY low for me). I needed some gas, so I stopped and tanked up. I had my wife try riding my bike to see if she had the same problem. Well, she didn't, but she DID notice that a substantial amount of wind was hitting her in the stomach - moreso than her bike. On her bike, I noticed that I was experiencing the same problem, but not as badly. If I moved my arm around... once again, it stopped. Her wind screen is even LOWER than mine is and I started to notice just a little bit of helmet buffeting. It wasn't anything I would call an aggrivation though, especially not like what I was feeling on my bike. So, long story short... I'm thinking that lowers would most definitely cure my ails. Who makes the best set? Should I go with Memphis Shades? Are there any other companies that make them and perhaps cheaper? Should I settle for the cheaper ones with the problem being this severe? Perhaps the Memphis Shades will be heavier and more substantial. I want to make sure this problem gets ousted and stays ousted! I was really REALLY happy last night when I found that out. It was really uncomfortable, but when I had my arm in front of me blocking the wind, it made the ride quite enjoyable! I'm going to do some more research on lowers. Hopefully I can find a cheaper set that will work just as well. What a relief. It looks like my cool windscreen wasn't a waste after all. Thanks for all of the advice everyone. I've really found this to be really REALLY helpful. My faith in my windshield selection has been restored. I'm just glad I didn't waste the money. Any more advice on lowers would be appreciated. Thanks again, and hats off gents. __________________ My Bike - Black 2006 C50 - C50 & M50 Pictures Wife's Bike - Black 2005 M50 - C50 & M50 Pictures ------------------------------------------------ Teal 1966 Coupe Deluxe w/ Modified 302 - 1966 Pictures Last edited by automogul; 01-11-2006 at 07:42 AM.

01-11-2006, 08:19 AM	#13 (permalink)
Capt Griff Newbie Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 8	Here are the ones I used, all buffetting (well 95%) is now gone. They will fit with the OEM windshield and the OEM Lightbar. Do not worry, they will fit even with the turn signals down on the the OEM light bar, so tight that you cannot even get at credit card between the back of the turn signal housing and the lowers. You will not regret it. http://store.valueaccessories.net/in...OD&ProdID=1353 Good Luck, Griff

02-04-2006, 12:55 PM	#14 (permalink)
Clintoysterwood Seat Tester Joined: Feb 2006 Bike: 2005 C50 Location: Foothills of the Cascades Posts: 79	Capt Griff, Appreciate the discussion from all on the buffetting. I lowered the oem windshield and it did nothing for highway speed buffetting. Duck taped some plastic where the lowers would go and that removed most of the buffetting. I appreciate all the discussion and will order the lowers. Mileage loss is not a problem if it solves the highway speed buffetting. Clint

02-05-2006, 03:32 PM	#15 (permalink)
buellwinkle Newbie Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 24	The problem with a conventional windshield on some bikes like the C50 is that it's too far from the rider. It's funny but same windshield on a Harley Heritage Softtail that works well for it has serious buffeting problems on a Harley Road King. You can get a much taller windshield but you are going to have a tough time seeing through it if it rains/drizzles, you have to be able to see over it comfortably. The second problem of having a windshield that's mounted so far foward is that it makes the bike feel unstable, all the weight and pressure that's forward of the center of axis, not a clever design. Small side winds can make the steering interesting. The solution to the buffeting is to use lowers. Some people believe this works by preventing wind from coming up from the under the windshield. My belief is that it works by making the windshield bigger and lowering the turbulance/buffeting sweet spot from head level. Does nothing for the handling. A complete solution is Corbins Trimtab, it's small, puts the pressure behind the center of axis, diverts airflow above your head and allows you to have an open view of the road so it's a perfect solution. The problem is that it's ugly, at least to me and expensive at $800. http://www.corbin.com/suzuki/volusiatrimtab.shtml

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

02-05-2006, 10:46 PM	#17 (permalink)
Rocken Seat Tester Joined: Feb 2006 Bike: 3 Suzukis 2 C50 & 1 GS750E Location: South Ca. Posts: 93	I like the crome lowers.... I have seen some with vents that look real nice...

02-06-2006, 10:45 AM	#18 (permalink)
Clintoysterwood Seat Tester Joined: Feb 2006 Bike: 2005 C50 Location: Foothills of the Cascades Posts: 79	Somewhere on this thread I picked up this URL for chrome lowers. http://store.valueaccessories.net/in...OD&ProdID=1353 Does anyone have experience with these and will they work with the OEM windshield? These seem to look better that the clear acrylic. This is to reduce buffetting at 70+. I looked at another site and they seem to be restricted to National and used the light bar and windshield as part of their install. Clint

02-06-2006, 09:07 PM	#20 (permalink)
Rocken Seat Tester Joined: Feb 2006 Bike: 3 Suzukis 2 C50 & 1 GS750E Location: South Ca. Posts: 93	Yes those are the ones I was talking about. I have seen some with the vents on them as well... I will look for the URL... I gess it is the same one... http://207.97.194.229/Automotive/Landing666a1353.html http://store.valueaccessories.net/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1353 Last edited by Rocken; 02-06-2006 at 09:28 PM.

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